Too many players on the court

[Coach Bill]

JRut - it was 6 active players against 5 active players. It was for about 8-10 seconds. Long enough for us to dribble from the backcourt to the frontcourt, have me yell to the refs three times that they have 6 on the court, have the other coach hear me and yell "Johnny, get off the court!", and have the guy jump off in front of my bench, run to his bench and sit down. The ball was in play the entire time until I received my technical.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

JRut - it was 6 active players against 5 active players. It was for about 8-10 seconds. Long enough for us to dribble from the backcourt to the frontcourt, have me yell to the refs three times that they have 6 on the court, have the other coach hear me and yell "Johnny, get off the court!", and have the guy jump off in front of my bench, run to his bench and sit down. The ball was in play the entire time until I received my technical.

As this is worded, I probably would have called this regardless of the level. Doesn't make me right and them wrong, just how I would have probably done it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

JRut - it was 6 active players against 5 active players. It was for about 8-10 seconds. Long enough for us to dribble from the backcourt to the frontcourt, have me yell to the refs three times that they have 6 on the court, have the other coach hear me and yell "Johnny, get off the court!", and have the guy jump off in front of my bench, run to his bench and sit down. The ball was in play the entire time until I received my technical.

OK.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, this conversation is over your head; kind of like the previous discussion about "foul count" that you still do not understand to this day.

Peace

Been meaning to pick up an English/gibberish dictionary.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Been meaning to pick up an English/gibberish dictionary.

Funny, you were the only one not understanding. Maybe it is just you.

Peace

[just another ref]

Maybe you could look up contradiction in the dictionary and explain this sequence.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do advantage/affect on the game ever play a part in whether you make this particular call?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes for me

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say anything about advantage/disadvantage.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Maybe you could look up contradiction in the dictionary and explain this sequence.

It is obvious you do not understand a basic concept. The term "Advantage/disadvantage" involves contact and fouls.

Have you ever seen a technical "carry" by a dribbler standing at the division line, all by himself and the nearest defender is below the 3 point line not in any way trying to prevent the movement of the ball handler? Well in many people's eyes this is not a necessary proper call because it might be a technical violation of the rules, but no advantage was gained by the dribbler so the violation is passed on. As opposed if the same carry takes place to try to set up a move to the basket or to maintain control of the ball and the player carries the ball and an official might make that call instead. You can violate rules on a technical level and not put anyone at a disadvantage.

I guess to you that particular call is based on advantage/disadvantage. In the OP, I would make a case that there was no advantage by the team with 6 players on the court for such a brief period of time during a summer league game. Unlike a regular season game there is not the same dead ball structures in place and usually this takes place out of pure confusion because some of the same things that happen during the regular season are not in place. And I am sure that is why the officials on this game simply passed on a T.

Peace

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

To Mark Dexter: "But when they saw A1 step off the court, they didn't know that there were still five players left. IMO, no T in this case."

Wouldn't you have either:

1. Too many players

As I said before - this one is only a T if it's discovered while being violated. If a kid runs off the floor, then you count five on the court, you didn't discover it while there were six on the court. No T.

2. A player voluntarily leaving the playing court.

Might be a violation, but leaving the floor for an unauthorized reason is no longer penalized with a technical foul.

3. A player away from the bench area.

First off, check your definitions. Other than during intermissions and timeouts, players should generally be off the bench. Second, even if he were a substitute, the T is for leaving a bench area during a fight. Otherwise, we'd have a T whenever the JV players left to dress for the varsity game.

Aren't these all cases for a 'T'? You had to have something.

All I have is a "sorry, coach, we didn't see him when he was out on the court."

And, the refs admitted they saw him, but "He got off the court quickly, so we let it go". I got the 'T' for unsportingly asking "How can you just ignore the rules like that!!!"

Now we're talking differently. If they knew six were out on the court, but chose not to call it, you have a semi-legitimate beef. If they truly didn't even think to count until A6 ran off (which is what I assumed in my answers above), then there's nothing they can do. If a T is called, A's coach is going to have the right to go ballistic for ignoring the rules.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I was just responding to Mark Dexter, who admits to seeing the 6th guy jumping off the court but calls nothing. If he does that in his varsity high school game, then I think his evaluator would disagree.

First off, thanks for bumping me up a level or two. I'll hopefully be there in a few years.

That said, I would hope that my evaluator would rather have me follow the rule than make what seems to be the right call.

Also, I'm not saying that I would ignore 6 players on the court. I have (and will continue to) called this a T, whether it's a situation where I should have counted or not. If, however, A6 steps off the court right next to me and only then do I notice that there are still 5 players out there, I'm not calling a T unless A6 comes back onto the court.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Don't worry, coach. You are correct about this whole thing.
Mark is smarter than that. He doesn't really believe that all six kids must be counted simultaneously in order for there to be a penalty. It must have been $1 beer night at the campus wateringhole.
Rut likes to argue in circles.

Speak for yourself, my Georgetown friend.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Speak for yourself, my Georgetown friend.

Ok, I'd blow the whistle and charge a team technical foul.

Seriously, Mark, it doesn't matter if the exiting player is the first one that you count or that last one, the reasonable call here is a T. The line that you are attempting to draw is just too fine.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, I'd blow the whistle and charge a team technical foul. It doesn't matter if the exiting player is the first one that you count or that last one, the reasonable call here is a T.

Well put. I agree. If you see the player leave the court, that means the player was seen while on, or partially on, the court, if there are five teammates still on the court, do the math, five plus the one who exited is six. Technical foul. In my opinion, just because the whistle was blown while there were only five players on the court, I don't think that it's too late to call the foul, as long as the official was 100% sure that the team was playing with six immediately before the whistle. As in almost all calls, there is going to be some type of delay between the foul, or violation, and the resultant whistle. Just because, at the same time that you're thinking about putting some air into the whistle, there are only five players still left within the boundaries of the playing court, is not, in my opinion, a reason to ignore this technical foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just because, at the same time that you're thinking about putting some air into the whistle, there are only five players still left within the boundaries of the playing court, is not, in my opinion, a reason to ignore this technical foul.

Folks, that's not what I've been advocating.

If I know that there are six on the court, then someone steps off, I'll call the T. No different than calling a travel a half-second late because the whistle fell out of my mouth.

If, however, I see a player come off the court, then I count, there's no way I can justify a T and I'm certainly not calling one.

[Coach Bill]

Would you call a violation for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

If I know that there are six on the court, then someone steps off, I'll call the T. No different than calling a travel a half-second late because the whistle fell out of my mouth.

If, however, I see a player come off the court, then I count, there's no way I can justify a T and I'm certainly not calling one.

Whatintheheck is the difference?

In both cases, you just discovered that a team had 6 players participating simultaneously. That meets the rules requirements.

See case book play 10.1.6(a). In that situation, the technical foul is called after the clock has stopped and no one is participating. That shoots your theory down.