Cal/UCLA DD??

[SMEngmann]

[QUOTE=socalreff]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Good points here. Shooting over the backboard is NOT legal in NCAA. Based on what I saw, I believe that the officials call a fist violation, which is why there was more time on the clock and the ball was inbounded on the sideline. If that was the case, however, I believe there should have been 1.5on the clock since the clock was stopped at 1.5 when the fist occurred. Either that or the ball should have been inbounded on the endline with however much time left that they determined when the ball was OOB.QUOTE]

The clock starts on a touch. You have to take time off and the ball goes to the spot of the violation. It should have been 1.2

Why would the clock start if the touch was a violation, in this case a fist to the ball? The ball was not legally touched in that case, so there should be 1.5 on the clock as I read the rule.

Now, if a fist violation hadn't occurred, the ball clearly went OOB on the baseline, and on my DVR replay, when the game clock showed 0.7 the ball was clearly over OOB but hadn't touched anything yet. My point is that if they called OOB there should have been a baseline throw-in. If they called a fist, there should have been more time on the clock. That's why I'm confused as to what was actually called. Obviously there's something they saw on the monitor that I didn't on my replays.

[socalreff]

[QUOTE=SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Why would the clock start if the touch was a violation, in this case a fist to the ball? The ball was not legally touched in that case, so there should be 1.5 on the clock as I read the rule.

Now, if a fist violation hadn't occurred, the ball clearly went OOB on the baseline, and on my DVR replay, when the game clock showed 0.7 the ball was clearly over OOB but hadn't touched anything yet. My point is that if they called OOB there should have been a baseline throw-in. If they called a fist, there should have been more time on the clock. That's why I'm confused as to what was actually called. Obviously there's something they saw on the monitor that I didn't on my replays.

I saw the replay from 2 angles. They got it wrong. Either 1.2 with fist violation or 0.1 at the most when it touched out of bounds. The reason for time coming off with the violation is because the clock starts on a touch, not a legal touch. Don't confuse it with the throw-in ending rule.
The reason the NBA does 0.3 in these situations is to be consistent across the board and 0.4 or more you can catch. You could take off .1 or .2 if you'd like.

[Adam]

[QUOTE=socalreff]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I saw the replay from 2 angles. They got it wrong. Either 1.2 with fist violation or 0.1 at the most when it touched out of bounds. The reason for time coming off with the violation is because the clock starts on a touch, not a legal touch. Don't confuse it with the throw-in ending rule.
The reason the NBA does 0.3 in these situations is to be consistent across the board and 0.4 or more you can catch. You could take off .1 or .2 if you'd like.

Where's your definite knowledge? You can't just pull a number out of your a$$, no matter how accurate you think your a$$ may be.

[socalreff]

[QUOTE=Snaqwells]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Where's your definite knowledge? You can't just pull a number out of your a$$, no matter how accurate you think your a$$ may be.

But my butt is very accurate!!!
You can catch and shoot with 0.4 or more and you can tap with 0.3 or less....as a barometer or measuring stick.
Question -- If the ball is inbounded and touched before going out, and no time goes off, are you gonna leave it or take time off?

[Adam]

My point has nothing to do with whether your approach makes sense. My point is you cannot do what you're suggesting, by rule. If the NFHS wants it (and the NCAA), then they should add it. Lord knows they've had time to do it if they want. They haven't.
To answer your question. I'd leave it on, because there's no rule that allows me to take any time off there.

Now, I'll address whether it makes sense (aside from the rules.)
It doesn't. The time it takes to catch and shoot has nothing to do with the time it takes a punched ball to travel out of bounds. They're two completely different acts.

Now, to the

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Question -- If the ball is inbounded and touched before going out, and no time goes off, are you gonna leave it or take time off?

If you start a count on the touch and reach one or more whole seconds, you can take the appropriate number of seconds off, otherwise you leave it alone.

[Mark Dexter]

[QUOTE=socalreff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Question -- If the ball is inbounded and touched before going out, and no time goes off, are you gonna leave it or take time off?

Clock stays where it is.

I prefer the NBA rule, but at the NCAA/NFHS level, you have NO rule support whatsoever for doing that. Unless you have definitive knowledge of the time involved, it's a timer's error that you can't correct. If you're working NCAA, you may be able to go to the monitor with a stopwatch, but even that won't be 100% accurate.

[socalreff]

[QUOTE=Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Clock stays where it is.

I prefer the NBA rule, but at the NCAA/NFHS level, you have NO rule support whatsoever for doing that. Unless you have definitive knowledge of the time involved, it's a timer's error that you can't correct. If you're working NCAA, you may be able to go to the monitor with a stopwatch, but even that won't be 100% accurate.

Of course I have support in the book:
c. Timing.
2. Determine whether a timing mistake has occurred in either starting
or stopping the game clock. Determination is based on the judgment
of the official. Such a mistake shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have
been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the
second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
No timing mistake correction shall be carried over from one half or
extra period to another. Such a mistake shall be corrected before the
start of intermission.

It says nothing about DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE like people keep trying to use high school language. It is a JUDGMENT CALL!!! This language was specifically put in (heard directly from Struckoff and Nichols) to allow the officials to do the right thing.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=socalreff]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Of course I have support in the book:

It says nothing about DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE like people keep trying to use high school language. It is a JUDGMENT CALL!!! This language was specifically put in (heard directly from Struckoff and Nichols) to allow the officials to do the right thing.

Methinks that you need to borrow an NCAA rule book from somebody and do a little reading..

See NCAA rule 5-11-1--"When a timing mistake has occurred because of the failure to start or stop the clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected ONLY when the referee has DEFINITE INFORMATION relative to the time involved."

Rule 5-11-4 also says "definite information relative to the mistake...".

The FED and NCAA rules are basically the same except for the monitor being allowed to gain definite information under NCAA rules.

[Mark Dexter]

[QUOTE=socalreff]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Of course I have support in the book:

As Jurassic has pointed out, you're reading the wrong section of the rulebook. The official judges whether or not a timing error has occurred. Once he/she judges that an error has occurred, he/she needs "definite information" (whether from a count, the table crew, partners, the TV feed) as to how to correct that error.

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by socalreff

I saw the replay from 2 angles. They got it wrong. Either 1.2 with fist violation or 0.1 at the most when it touched out of bounds. The reason for time coming off with the violation is because the clock starts on a touch, not a legal touch. Don't confuse it with the throw-in ending rule.
The reason the NBA does 0.3 in these situations is to be consistent across the board and 0.4 or more you can catch. You could take off .1 or .2 if you'd like.

NCAA Rule 5-9-4:

"When play is resumed by throw in, the game clock and the shot clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by or touches a player on the playing court."

If the officials ruled that the ball was fisted, replays showed that the fist was the initial touch, which was a violation, so the clock would stay 1.5 since there was no legal touch. If the clock were to start on any touch, there would be no need to stipulate "legally" in the book.

I do agree with you that 0.7 sideline inbound doesn't make sense given the info that we have.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

NCAA Rule 5-9-4:

"When play is resumed by throw in, the game clock and the shot clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by or touches a player on the playing court."

If the officials ruled that the ball was fisted, replays showed that the fist was the initial touch, which was a violation, so the clock would stay 1.5 since there was no legal touch. If the clock were to start on any touch, there would be no need to stipulate "legally" in the book.

I do agree with you that 0.7 sideline inbound doesn't make sense given the info that we have.

They should add this play to the case book as there are multiple times a year the first touch is illegal, usually a kick.