My season is <sniff> over

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I suppose it's possible to be more patronizing and misogynistic, but I can't quite imagine you posting it and having it stay on this board. You've managed to insult pretty much everyone involved in women's and girls' basketball.

But, I'm the one that'll take the heat for writing this, not you for what you wrote.

Still, I need to just point it out. Not that arguing will change anything. But women and girls who read this board need to know that not everyone is as obnoxious as you about this subject. A lot of us know that belittling women's and girls' sports isn't manly, just very small-minded.

Every time someone does not take a glowing stand for working girl's basketball, you take it personally. The reality is many people do not like girl's basketball. Women's basketball is a money loser on most college campuses. It is a money loser on TV, which is why they seem to only show the top teams on TV and not the many, middle of the road teams you see on ESPN or Fox. I am sure there are small places in this country where girl's and Women's basketball is seen as higher and on par with boy's and Men's basketball. But that is not the case in most cases and every time someone says they would rather work a Boy's game, you make it sound like they are the worst person in the world. This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway. Believe me, if you change the topic to baseball and softball, I do not see many people belittling working softball. It is not just about gender.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Every time someone does not take a glowing stand for working girl's basketball, you take it personally. The reality is many people do not like girl's basketball. Women's basketball is a money loser on most college campuses. It is a money loser on TV, which is why they seem to only show the top teams on TV and not the many, middle of the road teams you see on ESPN or Fox. I am sure there are small places in this country where girl's and Women's basketball is seen as higher and on par with boy's and Men's basketball. But that is not the case in most cases and every time someone says they would rather work a Boy's game, you make it sound like they are the worst person in the world. This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway. Believe me, if you change the topic to baseball and softball, I do not see many people belittling working softball. It is not just about gender.

Peace

Rut...... can't follow this. Just asking.

"This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway"

[rainmaker]

My objection to the OP isn't that he doesn't like working women's games. I know there are officials that don't like it, and while I certainly don't agree (I like women's games), they're entitled to their opinion.

My objection was to the belittling of women's sports: boys' games are somehow a "reward" for doing girls' games, and we need to "move up through" the girls -ugh!- to get to the good stuff, and only the good refs get boys' games. The fact of the matter is that there is good reffing, and it applies to girls games, and it applies to boys games. If his association really does set up their structure such that the sentences he said are just part of life in his area, then some coaches need to sue. It's just plain illegal.

And, Camron, the main reason I want to do boys' games is for variety. I would NOT want to do only boys. There are boys games that are faster, scores tend to go higher than girls, and that's fun. But there aren't many (if any) boys games that are better than Southridge/Central Catholic girls, unless a person just likes boys play better. For me, it's not a boy/girl thing, it's just variety. I like doing some of each.

ALso because if I don't do some boys' games every season, there are four tournaments for which I"m not eligible. I really would like to change that, but until it gets adjusted, I need to get some boys games every year, so that I can get to Pendleton someday.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My objection was to the belittling of women's sports: boys' games are somehow a "reward" for doing girls' games, and we need to "move up through" the girls -ugh!- to get to the good stuff, and only the good refs get boys' games. The fact of the matter is that there is good reffing, and it applies to girls games, and it applies to boys games. If his association really does set up their structure such that the sentences he said are just part of life in his area, then some coaches need to sue. It's just plain illegal.

He did not make any comments about other women's sports in general. He made comments about girl's basketball. And whether you like it or not, basketball is the only sport that I can think of that runs both genders at the same time in most jurisdictions. Volleyball officials for example do not have to choose which gender to work on the same night as many officials might have to during the basketball season. And whether you also want to admit it or not, many coaches and officials are not required the same level of experience to coach or officiate those games at the high school level. I have seen many coaches regardless of gender barely have any experience and they are given the head coaching job. And definitely that is the case when it comes to officials. Even at the college level many officials do not have extensive experience under their belts and they have been given an opportunity to work even post season assignments at the lower level college ranks. I know my first varsity game was given to me was on the girl's side and I was told repeatedly (by even woman ADs) that they did not see me as ready to work boy's games early in my career even though they would give me girl's varsity games at the same school. And I am sure one of the main reasons for that is girl’s games did not bring the same scrutiny to that school as the boy’s team did. Even the very good girl’s teams are not as highly covered or attended as some very middle of the road teams. I am sure that is not unique to where I live.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

ALso because if I don't do some boys' games every season, there are four tournaments for which I"m not eligible. I really would like to change that, but until it gets adjusted, I need to get some boys games every year, so that I can get to Pendleton someday.

That sounds like a structural issue in your area and might not even be an issue where other people live. In my area you work get post season only based on what level you work. If you never work girl's games, you are not elgible for working girl's post season and vise versa.

Peace

[Raymond]

I know I prefer working Boys HS b-ball over Girls HS b-ball anyday of the week. But if I were a college volleyball official I would rather work Women's games.

In my HS association there are "big dawgs" who do not work any girls games. Our latest top female official did drop out the board after last season partially b/c she wasn't getting any boys games. She's an NCAA-W official who had already work conference tournaments for 2 different D2's and this season will be working a D1 conference tournament.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

She's an NCAA-W official who had already work conference tournaments for 2 different D2's and this season will be working a D1 conference tournament.

And that in itself does not make you qualified to work a Boy's HS game in my opinion. NCAA Women's basketball is not even the same as a very good Boy's game where the game is above the rim. Maybe she should have been given a chance, but the way women's basketball wants the game called, that is not necessarily an acceptable experience. And I am speaking as someone that worked Women’s college ball at the D3 level at one time. There is a reason I got out of Women’s ball.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And that in itself does not make you qualified to work a Boy's HS game in my opinion. NCAA Women's basketball is not even the same as a very good Boy's game where the game is above the rim. Maybe she should have been given a chance, but the way women's basketball wants the game called, that is not necessarily an acceptable experience. And I am speaking as someone that worked Women’s college ball at the D3 level at one time. There is a reason I got out of Women’s ball.

Peace

Jeff,

If she can successfully work D1 women's, she should at least be given a shot at the HS varsity level on the boys side. If she isn't getting games cause she's female (and it sounds like that could be the case here), it's as despicable as what happened to that female official in Kansas.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My objection to the OP isn't that he doesn't like working women's games. I know there are officials that don't like it, and while I certainly don't agree (I like women's games), they're entitled to their opinion.

My objection was to the belittling of women's sports: boys' games are somehow a "reward" for doing girls' games, and we need to "move up through" the girls -ugh!- to get to the good stuff, and only the good refs get boys' games. The fact of the matter is that there is good reffing, and it applies to girls games, and it applies to boys games. If his association really does set up their structure such that the sentences he said are just part of life in his area, then some coaches need to sue. It's just plain illegal.

And, Camron, the main reason I want to do boys' games is for variety. I would NOT want to do only boys. There are boys games that are faster, scores tend to go higher than girls, and that's fun. But there aren't many (if any) boys games that are better than Southridge/Central Catholic girls, unless a person just likes boys play better. For me, it's not a boy/girl thing, it's just variety. I like doing some of each.

ALso because if I don't do some boys' games every season, there are four tournaments for which I"m not eligible. I really would like to change that, but until it gets adjusted, I need to get some boys games every year, so that I can get to Pendleton someday.

Illegal? Puh-lease.

I am thrilled I was selected to work a girls sectional and I probably work 50% girls games each season. I do it because as a former assignor, I think it's the right thing to do (here the assignors assign both). I am ranked slightly higher by the girls coaches, actually, because I work hard from tip to buzzer no matter the level or the gender of the participants.

But would I, given a choice, work a boys sectional over a girls sectional if asked? In a heartbeat.

Some of us would simply rather work on the boys side and many associations have recognized (rightly or wrongly) that a boys game is harder to work or should get the highest rated officials. Is this actionable? I really doubt it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Rut...... can't follow this. Just asking.

"This is why I am glad I can choose or I would focus more on college ball that would make it clear I would have to choose anyway"

What do you want to know?

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What do you want to know?

Peace

I don't understand what you wrote. No opinion, just trying to follow the thread. I think you are saying that college ball would dictate Men's or Women's?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I don't understand what you wrote. No opinion, just trying to follow the thread. I think you are saying that college ball would dictate Men's or Women's?

If it was required for me to work both genders, I would stick to working college ball and leave HS ball alone. There is a reason I do not work any girl's basketball and I turn those games back when assignors try to give them to me. I am so glad I live in an area where that is not a choice.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

OK - I'll settle this. From now on, everybody work only transsexual's games.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK - I'll settle this. From now on, everybody work only transsexual's games.

I can only think of one team name for this category. Both words rhyme with "sticks."

Anyhow, I'm not picky. And I don't buy Jeff's argument when it comes to the HS level. I've called plenty of goaltending and basket interference in my day and until I got to the boys varsity level, rarely had to make those calls. What's the difference between me and that female official? Either she will nail those calls or she won't. Either she'll work like the other officials or she'll wash out like anyone ELSE given the opportunity.

Anyone who moves to the college level and can't get a decent HS schedule, well, there's something wrong with the assignors then.

[canuckref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

OK - I'll settle this. From now on, everybody work only transsexual's games.

isn't that already the case in Oregon?

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If it was required for me to work both genders, I would stick to working college ball and leave HS ball alone. There is a reason I do not work any girl's basketball and I turn those games back when assignors try to give them to me. I am so glad I live in an area where that is not a choice.

Peace

I prefer officials who don't like to work girls games to admit it rather than do the games anyway with a chip on their shoulder. The more of these that stay away from doing girls/womens basketball the better off everybody is. To me, a boys game is far easier to officiate than a girls game. It takes one heck of an official to do a consistently good job on girls games. I do both every year and almost without exception the boys games are easier. The only thing that might be tougher is there seems to be more scrutiny placed on boys games.