Question about hand activity during shot.

[Vinski]

I’m still pretty new to officiating and still trying to identify the proper way to judge contact in different situations.

There are times when a shooter will be going up and toward the basket on a shot and a defender will block the shot by getting a hand on the ball and knocking it away but then make contact with the shooters arms after the block. There are times when I call this and I get protests from coaches and even comments from other observing refs that “that was all ball”. But I am 100% positive about the arm contact after the block and I’m sure it was obvious. Sometime you can even hear the “smack”. It’s true that the well executed defense of the block on the ball stopped the shot from scoring, but there is some contact after the block. Is this a foul? Does it depend on the severity of the contact? Most times, I don’t believe there was any real disadvantage place on the shooter in this case.

[just another ref]

Translation: If a player makes any contact with the ball, he is allowed to decapitate the shooter and it shouldn't be a foul. "ALL BALL, REF!"

Conversely, if the defender lightly grazes the shirt of the shooter, prepare for shouts of, "AND ONE!"

[blindzebra]

If the block came first the contact probably did not hinder the shot...now the question becomes does the contact hinder the landing?

So unless the contact is pretty bad, there may not be a foul.

Had a veteran D1 official tell me once:

Ball then body/hit nothing.

Body/hit then ball foul.

[Grail]

This is something you need to judge on your own.

In discussions with officials that have been working for a long time, if the contact on the ball is completed, and the shooter is not disadvantaged, let it go. That said, if the shooter isn't allowed to land cleanly, it's a block.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Vinski

“that was all ball”.

Gee, I've never heard that one before.

If you didn't call a foul on everyone who said "it was all ball" or "I didn't even touch em".....there'd be a heck of a lot less people fouling out and fouls shots.....hmmmmm.

Ignore em and call your game. This will get easier with time and experience.

[Coltdoggs]

Make sure when you do blow the whistle on this you give the correct signal....Don't use the illegal hand/contact signal (chop on your arm) if it's body contact....and don't use the Push signal if in fact they hit the arm. I see a lot of newer officials going to the illegal hands signal for every call....

Had the play you described last weekend...clean ball block but a lot of torso/torso contact that was created by the D ....I heard an AC say "Well, at least he signaled push"....

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Gee, I've never heard that one before.

If you didn't call a foul on everyone who said "it was all ball" or "I didn't even touch em".....there'd be a heck of a lot less people fouling out and fouls shots.....hmmmmm.

Ignore em and call your game. This will get easier with time and experience.

I think that some things need to be separated from the OP.

Sure we all get the I never touched him/all ball BS, but those comments really are a separate issue.

What needs focused on is advantage/disadvantage...does a defender that blocks the shot and then slaps the shooter's arm/hand on the follow through actually disadvantage the shooter and his/her shot?

Clearly once the ball is gone the shot is not hindered so the issue becomes displacement on the shooter's landing.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Make sure when you do blow the whistle on this you give the correct signal....Don't use the illegal hand/contact signal (chop on your arm) if it's body contact....and don't use the Push signal if in fact they hit the arm. I see a lot of newer officials going to the illegal hands signal for every call....

Had the play you described last weekend...clean ball block but a lot of torso/torso contact that was created by the D ....I heard an AC say "Well, at least he signaled push"....

Probably more important is vocalizing what you have.

A loud, "Body!" when you give that push signal goes a long way.

[Loudwhistle]

Last weekend GV I had a very similar call and there was no contact whatsoever with the hand on the shot but the hips met and the shooter was displaced, as I ran to ring up the block the coach was already rising up and walking towards me ready to protest, I quickly yelled body, and patted my hip as I gave the numbers. He turned and sat down with out a sound. (I know the hip pat is not proper)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Loudwhistle

(I know the hip pat is not proper)

At least not on the first date.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Most times, I don’t believe there was any real disadvantage place on the shooter in this case.

Philosophically, you answered your own question in the above quote. On the shot, with the should-I-or-shouldn't-I type calls, A/D is really the philosophy to use. If there's no disadvantage, there's no foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

If the block came first the contact probably did not hinder the shot...now the question becomes does the contact hinder the landing?

So unless the contact is pretty bad, there may not be a foul.

Had a veteran D1 official tell me once:

Ball then body/hit nothing.

Body/hit then ball foul.

This is not a shot at you BZ because I agree with most of what you've posted in this thread, even with what your D1 buddy told you.

But I long ago stopped putting into my game what D1 officials (vets & rookies) tell me simply because they don't have to deal with my assignors, my coaches, my partners, my game. I have to deal with them. What I put into my game is what the game needs at that time according to my interpretation of the rules.

What constitutes a foul on a big time block in a good game can't be summed up in a handfull of words on the internet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What I put into my game is what the game needs at that time according to my interpretation of the rules.

Words to live by..........