On the Hand : After the shot.

[mick]

Fed, CCA

A1 takes a jump shot with B1 closely defending.

At the peak of the release and with the ball 6" off the hand/fingertips of A1, defender B1

(A.) touches the shooting hand of A1 in follow through mode; the shot misses.

(B.) touches the wrist/forearm/elbow of A1 in follow through mode; the shot misses.

What do we have?

mick

[devdog69]

HTBT to see it for sure, but I most likely would have nothing in both cases. It did not affect the shot and especially if the contact was a result of A's follow through. I would be more apt to have something in (B) depending on the severity of the contact and if it was caused by B and not A.

[ChuckElias]

I concur with dev.

[crew]

i would have nothing. you said it was after the release and therefor it would not affect the shot. incidental contact.

[bob jenkins]

"Touches" ===> nothing

"Slaps", "Whacks", etc. ====> foul

[mick]

Thanks, folks.

With a light touch after the ball is gone, we have nothing, and we play on even though the shooter is whining.

With adjudged harder contact, the action becomes a foul on the airborne shooter after the release.

With anything in between, that's why we get the Big buck$.

mick

[BktBallRef]

It's amazing how many coaches, fans, and players thanks that contact on the follow through affects the shot. Are there physics at work here that I don't understand?

If the shot has been released, contact on the shooter is not going to affect that shot. A proper follow through is the result of proper shooting techniques. But if the follow through is stopped, it certainly doesn't affect the shot.

I do agree with Bob and mick that a slap, whack, or hard contact should be called a foul.

Now, if there's contact on the hand while the shooter is still touching the ball, by a defender who is trying to block the shot, that contact is not accidental and I have a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Now, if there's contact on the hand while the shooter is still touching the ball, by a defender who is trying to block the shot, that contact is not accidental and I have a foul.

Say what?

[eroe39]

Mick, I tend to agree with everybody's answers here. Contact after the release should be ignored unless it is a hard whack or something that would look ugly to have no whistle on. Contact on the hand is never a foul since the hand is part of the ball if in contact with the ball. I noticed you put wrist/forearm/elbow for part b. A lot of coaches actually know that the hand is part of the ball when in contact with the ball so we as officials need to be careful when communicating with coaches. You would not want to say "Coach, he got him on the hand." Just say "Coach, he got him on the arm."

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eroe39
Contact on the hand is never a foul since the hand is part of the ball if in contact with the ball.

Say what?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Say what?

You were just waiting for that,weren't you
The language in both the Fed and NCAA rulesets are fairly similar.They state that it is legal use of the hands if the defender ACCIDENTALLY hits the hand of an opponent who is shooting(or dribbling,holding,etc.),if that opponent's hand is in contact with the ball.Therefore,if the official feels that the contact was deliberate,and not accidental,the official CAN call a foul on the defender in this instance.The rules reference is R4-24-2 in FED,and somewhere in R4 in NCAA(ain't gonna look it up,but I know that they use the term "accidental" also).As J. Dallas Shirley said.."never say never!".
I believe that is what BktBallRef was getting at.The only reason that I questioned Tony's original reply was that it inferred to me that he ALWAYS called a foul in the case where a player tried to block a shot and got the shooter's hand while it was still on the ball.I found that hard to believe.If he can read a defender's intent that clearly that he's able to know,without doubt,that is was a deliberate act and not accidental,he's a better man than I am,Gunga Din!If there's any doubt in my mind(and there usually is),I'll call it "accidental",and pass on the foul.
Good point by Tony,though.The accepted practise is to not call a foul in this situation,but you actually can call the foul,if you are so inclined.Official's judgement.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 16th, 2002 at 03:35 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by eroe39
A lot of coaches actually know that the hand is part of the ball when in contact with the ball so we as officials need to be careful when communicating with coaches. You would not want to say "Coach, he got him on the hand." Just say "Coach, he got him on the arm."

Eli,
I generally assume the coaches know the rules, but you lost me here.
mick

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
It's amazing how many coaches, fans, and players thanks that contact on the follow through affects the shot. Are there physics at work here that I don't understand?

No, but it might affect subsequent shots (more of a psychic thing than a physics thing), so the defense gains an advantage if the foul isn't called.

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

No, but it might affect subsequent shots (more of a psychic thing than a physics thing), so the defense gains an advantage if the foul isn't called.

bob,
That's certainly correct.
That's also why it's important for the summer blacktop time to include playing some "Pro-ball" which includes pullin', pushin', jabbin' and stabbin'.
Then, when a player does get an unadulterated shot it's like a gift.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

No, but it might affect subsequent shots (more of a psychic thing than a physics thing), so the defense gains an advantage if the foul isn't called.

Bob, I didn't use the word "foul." I used the word "contact." And, I was really pointing out that coaches, fans, and players seem to think that this contact affects the shot, even though the ball has been released.

I'm not psychic, so unless Dionne Warwicke is working the game, they're gonna be in trouble.

Jurassic, you're exactly right. If an official feels the contact on the hand is deliberate, a foul can certainly be called. And, yes, that is what I was implying.