Hand-check Question

rockyroad · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 12:15pm

I am helping out with a rookie class on Tues. evenings...last night we had some rec teams come in and had the rookies ref their games...I created a minor ruckus amongst the other "teachers" there and wanted input from the members of the board here...here is the situation:

Post player A5 has ball in low block and spins around defender B5...A5 takes one dribble, then their legal step and goes up for a lay-in, which goes in...we have a whistle, foul called on B5, and rookie waves off shot and basket and calls B5 for a hand-check...gives A ball oob under the basket...

Afterward, I make the comment that it should NOT have been a handcheck call, but a push, and count the basket and give them one shot, or else call nothing at all...my point was that a handchecking call should never be made when the offensive player is going to beat the defender to the basket and have a legit shot attempt...let them take the shot, and if the contact causes problems, call it a push or hold...by calling handchecking, we are essentially saying the player was still a ballhandler and not shooting and we have put the offensive player at a disadvantage by not seeing the entire play...

Needless to say, there was some strong disagreement from some of the other "teachers"...am I way off base here?? Any gems I can take back to the group to help them see my point???

stripes · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Post player A5 has ball in low block and spins around defender B5...A5 takes one dribble, then their legal step and goes up for a lay-in, which goes in...we have a whistle, foul called on B5, and rookie waves off shot and basket and calls B5 for a hand-check...gives A ball oob under the basket...

Afterward, I make the comment that it should NOT have been a handcheck call, but a push, and count the basket and give them one shot, or else call nothing at all...my point was that a handchecking call should never be made when the offensive player is going to beat the defender to the basket and have a legit shot attempt...let them take the shot, and if the contact causes problems, call it a push or hold...by calling handchecking, we are essentially saying the player was still a ballhandler and not shooting and we have put the offensive player at a disadvantage by not seeing the entire play...

Needless to say, there was some strong disagreement from some of the other "teachers"...am I way off base here?? Any gems I can take back to the group to help them see my point???

I am a little confused about where the foul occurred. If it was on the spin, I would probably call a "hold" and give them the ball oob. If it were on the shot, I wouldn't call a hand check (I probably wouldn't call a push either, but that's another thread) I would probably call a "hold" if B5 was beaten or "illegal use of hands (hack)" if fouled on the arm etc. while shooting.

Theoretically, I agree with what you are saying about the ball handler vs shooter and seeing the whole play. Usually, I will call a HC on a drive or move to the basket and generally outside the key.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 12:29pm

I may draw fire on this, but handchecking is one thing that I think the NBA has a better perspective on than we do at the HS and possibly even at the college level. In the NBA, officials are to judge whether the speed, balance, or quickness of the dribbler have been affected by the contact. If so, then call a foul. If not (as it sounds in the case you describe), then let the play continue to the hoop. It's just my opinion, but I think that giving the speed-balance-quickness guideline is more helpful than trying to apply a vaguer sense of advantage/disadvantage. The result should be the same; since affecting one of those three things will put the dribbler at a disadvantage. But I like to add speed/balance/quickness to my mental game. I think it's helped me, personally.

rockyroad · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 12:41pm

Chuck, I agree, and that is what I was trying to point out - you just did it more eloquently...stripes, to clarify - the contact was a hand on the hip while A5 had picked up their dribble and was taking their step toward the basket...

bard · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 12:58pm

a hand on the hip while A5 had picked up their dribble and was taking their step toward the basket

As I understand this, unless the "hand on the hip" is doing some pushing, I'm not going to whistle at all. If I do, I'm signaling a push. I'm probably pretty lenient on what constitutes the shooting motion.

Dan_ref · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bard
a hand on the hip while A5 had picked up their dribble and was taking their step toward the basket

As I understand this, unless the "hand on the hip" is doing some pushing, I'm not going to whistle at all. If I do, I'm signaling a push. I'm probably pretty lenient on what constitutes the shooting motion.

Not sure I agree fully here. A "hand on the hip" is
*usually* doing some pushing and is enough to get my
attention. Whether I whistle or not depends on how well the
dribbler can play through it. Usually.

stripes · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 01:21pm

A hand on the hip? Sounds like a no call....unless the player is displaced. Is that call a good one? Are we calling something that matters? Are we disrupting the flow of the game? Very little contact and a made basket, I think I'm letting them play on.

Ref in PA · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 01:24pm

First, you have to see the play.

For me to consider the contact a foul, the path of A5 would have to be altered because of the hand on the hip (could be the speed or direction that gets altered). If I deem the contact was a foul, I then have to decide where the foul occurred. If on the dribble, I would call before the shot, otherwise, we shoot 1 after the made basket. I am there to ref the game, not the stupidity of the defense. Even though the result of the contact by B5 was not successful (A5 still scoring) the foul still occurred.

Now, in the play you described, it didn't sound much like a foul. It would have to be pretty a obvious hold/push for me to blow the whistle - but if it did happen, I would blow the whistle. Would you withhold the whistle for a smack on the wrist and A5 still scoring? No advantage/disadvantage there.

DrakeM · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 01:44pm

Sounds like a no call to me.
Let me bring up another point.
IMHO, too many referees DO NOT give "continuation" to a player going to the basket.
I can't tell you how many time's I've worked with partners
(AAU,High School) that call a foul, and then say "no shot, on the floor."
If a player has begun a "shooting motion" and is fouled, it is a shooting foul. NF,NCAA, and NBA/WNBA rules ALL READ THE SAME.
Even in watching tape this year, many plays that I said were not shooting, upon further review, should have been called two shot fouls.
My two cents.

rockyroad · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 03:02pm

There's no question in my mind about whether a foul should have been called or not - it shouldn't have in this play...no one disagreed with me when I pointed that out...where the disagreement started was when I said that IF a call was made, it surely better not be a handcheck...again, I felt it was penalizing the offensive player who made a nice move, and classified the shooter as a ball-handler...

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 03:52pm

Drake, do you have anything to add about the "sbq" guidelines? You have more experience with the NBA guidelines than I do. I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

Chuck

zebraman · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 04:03pm

As far as what foul was called (push, hand-check, or hold), I'm not sure that's important. I think the situation just shows that a young ref usually blows their whistle as soon as they see something rather than holding their whistle and waiting to see if the contact matters. I've "spaced out" a few times in my career and given the wrong signal at the table (a block when it was a push or a hold when it was a handcheck etc.) and I don't think anyone gave a rat's patootie. :-)

Z

JRutledge · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 04:20pm

when a dribbler movement has been altered. When a player is mainly going north and south. And if a dribbler is driving to the basket and the defender will not get his hand off of him as he goes up for a shot, call it then. Usually the defender will stop riding the dribbler/shooter and get the message.

Peace

bigwhistle · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 04:32pm

The point of rocky's post is to the type of foul that has been committed on a drive/shot. I agree with him that the call should not be a hand check. It should probably be a push.

Coaches are finally understanding the concept of the handcheck foul. They do not consider it to be applicable when a shot is going up. Make the call a push, as coaches relate handchecking to hindering the dribbler. Giving a little in order to be able to sell and communicate better with the coaches is a very small price to pay.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Oct 02, 2002, 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
..where the disagreement started was when I said that IF a call was made, it surely better not be a handcheck...again, I felt it was penalizing the offensive player who made a nice move, and classified the shooter as a ball-handler...

I'll disagree with you. Why must it not be a handcheck? A handcheck is really just a redundant foul type; it can always be called either a push or illegal use of hands. Show me a handcheck that is not "illegal use of hands". There is nothing saying that a handcheck can't occur during a try. I've often called and seen called the handcheck when the player is driving the lane and in the act of shooting. If they are being guided with the hand away from the desired path, handcheck. If they are displaced from a position, push. If the are prevented from moving, hold. All could be called illegal use of hands too.

There is a lot of overlap in the definitions of a foul. All that really matter is was it really a foul. What you call it has a lot of flexibility.