Violation?

[ca_rumperee]

So, from the previous discussion about illegal dribble I'm still wondering...

Player A1 initiates dribble by 'pushing the ball to the floor'. After the ball leaves A1's hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 contacts the ball a 2nd time (with either hand) and again pushes the ball to the floor.

Is this a violation, and why?

Is the language from 4.15.4 Sit. D RULING: "Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor." the only source for a violation in this instance?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

So, from the previous discussion about illegal dribble I'm still wondering...

Player A1 initiates dribble by 'pushing the ball to the floor'. After the ball leaves A1's hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 contacts the ball a 2nd time (with either hand) and again pushes the ball to the floor.

Is this a violation, and why?

Is the language from 4.15.4 Sit. D RULING: "Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor." the only source for a violation in this instance?

What difference does it make how many citations there are? Why isn't one enough?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

...Why isn't one enough?

My thought exactly.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

What difference does it make how many citations there are? Why isn't one enough?

.. and doesn't seem to be addressed in the rule itself. The citation mentions "touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble" yet the rule for when a dribble ends doesn't mention it.

Art. 4... The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
e. The ball becomes dead.
NOTE: 1 It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.
NOTE: 2 A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.
NOTE: 3 It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

I guess I'm just surprised that this isn't covered specifically in the rules book, but rather is used to discuss a play with batting the ball up, etc. and not specifically addressing whether a player can touch the ball twice during a more common dribble situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I guess I'm just surprised that this isn't covered specifically in the rules book.

That's why they have the case-book.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's why they have the case-book.

His point is valid, I think. This is widely accepted as being the rule, why isn't it in the rule book?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

His point is valid, I think. This is widely accepted as being the rule, why isn't it in the rule book?

And I think that you and rumpy should spend the next coupla weeks debating this just between the two of you. It'll keep both of you busy.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I think that you and rumpy should spend the next coupla weeks debating this just between the two of you. It'll keep both of you busy.

Shut up.

[crazy voyager]

No it isn't
What if a player is holding the ball above his head, then looses it and regains it, is that a dribble?
If the ball doesn't hit the floor then you havn't dribbled, so if he changes his mind and still somehow manages to catch the ball again, that's not a dribble.
But that also means he has to watch his feet since moving the pivot foot is a travel

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

No it isn't
What if a player is holding the ball above his head, then looses it and regains it, is that a dribble?
If the ball doesn't hit the floor then you havn't dribbled, so if he changes his mind and still somehow manages to catch the ball again, that's not a dribble.
But that also means he has to watch his feet since moving the pivot foot is a travel

Apples and oranges....and not relevant to each other.

Losing the ball is a fumble. Batting the ball to the floor is the start of a dribble. They're covered by completely different rules.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

So, from the previous discussion about illegal dribble I'm still wondering...

Player A1 initiates dribble by 'pushing the ball to the floor'. After the ball leaves A1's hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 contacts the ball a 2nd time (with either hand) and again pushes the ball to the floor.

Is this a violation, and why?

Is the language from 4.15.4 Sit. D RULING: "Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor." the only source for a violation in this instance?

The key words are DURING A DRIBBLE.

If you used that ruling, pushing the ball to the floor with both hands to start a dribble would be a violation.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

No it isn't
What if a player is holding the ball above his head, then looses it and regains it, is that a dribble?
If the ball doesn't hit the floor then you havn't dribbled, so if he changes his mind and still somehow manages to catch the ball again, that's not a dribble.
But that also means he has to watch his feet since moving the pivot foot is a travel

Really? It's a fumble, IMO, and it doesn't matter whether the ball hits the floor or not. And you can't travel if you are not in control of the ball.

[BillyMac]

During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be a illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

Really? It's a fumble, IMO, and it doesn't matter whether the ball hits the floor or not. And you can't travel if you are not in control of the ball.

Yes you're right, I totaly forgot that acctually... I must've been tired or something, it's a fumble and no travel, nor is at a violation or start of a dribble though.

Apples and oranges....and not relevant to each other.

Losing the ball is a fumble. Batting the ball to the floor is the start of a dribble. They're covered by completely different rules.

Are they not?
The case is that a player starts a dribble, but before the ball hits the floor, he catches it, to change his mind again and once more push it down (this time it hits the floor).
The same thing happens in the case I explained, the diffrence is that the player doesn't intentionally drop/push the ball. But as far as the rulebook is concerned, there's no diffrence. As long as the ball hasn't hit the floor the player hasn't dribbled, nor is he in control of the ball. Therefore he can't travel and he can't commit a bad dribble, and since the ball isn't in contact with his hand he can't carry it either.
I just tried to put it in another way to explain why there can't be a violation in this case.