Violation?
 

So, from the previous discussion about illegal dribble I'm still wondering...

Player A1 initiates dribble by 'pushing the ball to the floor'. After the ball leaves A1's hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 contacts the ball a 2nd time (with either hand) and again pushes the ball to the floor.

Is this a violation, and why?

Is the language from 4.15.4 Sit. D RULING: "Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor." the only source for a violation in this instance?

What difference does it make how many citations there are? Why isn't one enough?

My thought exactly.

It just seems a bit roundabout.
 

.. and doesn't seem to be addressed in the rule itself. The citation mentions "touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble" yet the rule for when a dribble ends doesn't mention it.
I guess I'm just surprised that this isn't covered specifically in the rules book, but rather is used to discuss a play with batting the ball up, etc. and not specifically addressing whether a player can touch the ball twice during a more common dribble situation.

That's why they have the case-book.

His point is valid, I think. This is widely accepted as being the rule, why isn't it in the rule book? :confused:

And I think that you and rumpy should spend the next coupla weeks debating this just between the two of you. It'll keep both of you busy.:)

Shut up. :D

No it isn't
What if a player is holding the ball above his head, then looses it and regains it, is that a dribble?
If the ball doesn't hit the floor then you havn't dribbled, so if he changes his mind and still somehow manages to catch the ball again, that's not a dribble.
But that also means he has to watch his feet since moving the pivot foot is a travel;)

Apples and oranges....and not relevant to each other.

Losing the ball is a fumble. Batting the ball to the floor is the start of a dribble. They're covered by completely different rules.

The key words are DURING A DRIBBLE.

If you used that ruling, pushing the ball to the floor with both hands to start a dribble would be a violation.

Really? It's a fumble, IMO, and it doesn't matter whether the ball hits the floor or not. And you can't travel if you are not in control of the ball.

Another Myth Bites The Dust ...
 

During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be a illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

Yes you're right, I totaly forgot that acctually... I must've been tired or something, it's a fumble and no travel, nor is at a violation or start of a dribble though.
Are they not?
The case is that a player starts a dribble, but before the ball hits the floor, he catches it, to change his mind again and once more push it down (this time it hits the floor).
The same thing happens in the case I explained, the diffrence is that the player doesn't intentionally drop/push the ball. But as far as the rulebook is concerned, there's no diffrence. As long as the ball hasn't hit the floor the player hasn't dribbled, nor is he in control of the ball. Therefore he can't travel and he can't commit a bad dribble, and since the ball isn't in contact with his hand he can't carry it either.
I just tried to put it in another way to explain why there can't be a violation in this case.