Block/Charge explanation.

I am in my third year of reffing HS games and have actually gotten into playing in leagues this winter. I came across this last night in Rec game that I was playing in. There was a close block/charge call that the official called a block. I wasn't quite sure that I agreed with it so I went over to ask the official why he called the block instead of the player control foul. I was expecting to hear that he didn't get position before the player left the floor or before contact. However, here is what the official told me: 'It was a block because he fell to the side instead of straight back.' Has anyone ever heard this explaination before. Just thought this was interesting interpretation of the rules.

[Bart Tyson]

Do you mean he fell to the side after the contact or before the contact? either way I havn't heard this before.

[RX Ref]

If he was watching the defender, the only thing i can think of that he means is that the offensive player got past the torso of the defender, and the contact then made the defender fall sideways. Dosn't seem like a very good explanation, but we all know this is a very tough call to make.

[tharbert]

"I wasn't quite sure that I agreed with it so I went over to ask the official why he called the block instead of the player control foul...."
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I'm more interested in how and when you talked to this guy. I hope it wasn't on the floor. How many times will you tolerate a player questioning your judgement during a game even in a rec league? Adult games are tough to call because of all the egos and basketball experts on the floor. I hope you bought the guy a beer afterwards!

Nope, I haven't heard this before. But there is enough in his an answer to presume that he was watching the play and you know he observed no legal guarding position.

As far as what he was talking about when he said he fell to the side I think he meant after contact but I have no Idea what he was refering to.

As far as going up to him and asking him about the call, I did it after he had reported it and before we shot free throws. As far as having kids ask me about calls I will usually tolerate it if they are asking repectfully and not complaining about it as they ask the question. I admit it was probably showing him up a little but I tried to be as respectful about it as I could until I heard the answer then I told him he was wrong about the interepretaion and we continued playing. (I know I personally would have probably T'd a player that would do that.)

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
As far as what he was talking about when he said he fell to the side I think he meant after contact but I have no Idea what he was refering to.

As far as having kids ask me about calls I will usually tolerate it if they are asking repectfully and not complaining about it as they ask the question

This could be from the mistaken belief that one has to hit the defender squarely on the torso for it to be a charge. If the defender falls backwards it is a charge. If the defender falls sideways, or spins, or, or, or, it is a block.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by RecRef

[/B]

This could be from the mistaken belief that one has to hit the defender squarely on the torso for it to be a charge. If the defender falls backwards it is a charge.

On a typical Block/Charge play, (opponents facing each other when contact occurrs) it certainly helps the defender if he takes a hit in the chest. I will have a no call if the contact is in the shoulder. You are correct, the defender does not have to take the hit spuarely.
Now, about your statement if the defender falls backwards, this is a judgement call. At what point in his leaning back and the contact occurrs do you decide to call block vs charge?

[egausch]

How about this sitch. Seen this many times and called both ways. Bigger, slower, A1 dribbling down court, near his own escape velocity. B1, smaller, quicker, jumps right in front of A1, hands/arms vertical, feet facing B1. Bamm!! No way A1 can stop without contact. Seems unfair to call PC when A1 is, likely, only trying to draw the foul, rather than using his quickness to actively defend. Rules say it's PC. No time or distance required. How do you guys make this call? What factors, if any, play into the judgement?
EG

[Kelvin green]

First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair

Does it matter that B1 is only trying to draw the foul? He has met the rule. He had established legal guarding position and thus is playing GOOD Defense (unless of course you want to get in the discussion if he had set up under the basket but weve been down that road) He has used his quickness to actively defend. He got in front of him in legal guarding position... A has two choices go around him or foul, not my fault A is too slow to go around. B forced the foul, and the turnover. There are no factors that play in the judgement. If In my judgement he has established legal guarding position the offense gets the foul. Why bail the offense out here? I will make the PC call on tis one no doubt.

This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens, setting the blind side screen with the appropriate distance, or one of a myriad of actions that teams use to get a team to violate or foul.

If someone sets a pick and gives the player the one or two steps and then has a violent collision then the foul must be on the screener because it just seems unfair that the screener could cause such a violent collision without penalty.

It seems unfair to call a T when a player only swings his elbows with no contact.

[RecRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

On a typical Block/Charge play, (opponents facing each other when contact occurrs) it certainly helps the defender if he takes a hit in the chest. I will have a no call if the contact is in the shoulder. You are correct, the defender does not have to take the hit spuarely.
Now, about your statement if the defender falls backwards, this is a judgement call. At what point in his leaning back and the contact occurrs do you decide to call block vs charge? [/B]

Let’s brake this down into two parts.

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.

In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.


As for the defender falling backwards, it is not my statement. All I said is that it may be an outgrowth of the misconception about where the hit took place. The fact is I don’t look at the aftermath of the hit to make my call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by RecRef
[B
Let’s brake this down into two parts.

[/b]

Stop.

Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.

So far, I have no call. What happened next?

In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.

Agreed.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair
This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens,

What's a legal moving screen?

[egausch]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelvin green
[B]First no one ever said all the rules had to be fair

Does it matter that B1 is only trying to draw the foul? He has met the rule. He had established legal guarding position and thus is playing GOOD Defense (unless of course you want to get in the discussion if he had set up under the basket but weve been down that road) He has used his quickness to actively defend. He got in front of him in legal guarding position... A has two choices go around him or foul, not my fault A is too slow to go around. B forced the foul, and the turnover. There are no factors that play in the judgement. If In my judgement he has established legal guarding position the offense gets the foul. Why bail the offense out here? I will make the PC call on tis one no doubt.

This isnt any different that setting legal moving screens, setting the blind side screen with the appropriate distance, or one of a myriad of actions that teams use to get a team to violate or foul.

I understand what your saying and this is the understanding I have from the rules. And yes, who says they have to be fair. I'll also avoid the under the hoop debate. But... Who is responsible for the contact? If someone jumps in front of a moving train, is it the train/conductor who initiated the contact? or is it the idiot who jumped in front? It's this question of "Who initiated the contact?" that seems to be where judgement could come into play. I have the same issue when an offensive player upfakes and then steps under the defender for the sole purpose of drawing a foul. Can't it be said that the offensive player initiated the contact?
EG

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by RecRef


Just last night I made 2 charge calls that you would have let go if you stick to the no call on a shoulder hit. In game one B was in a 2-3 zone with B1 and B2 guarding with less than “2” feet between them, not to say anything about 3 feet. A1 tried to split them and hit both on the shoulders.



In the second game A1 is driving the baseline with B2 set and blocking A1’s way on the baseline. (B1 was already beat and was following the play.) At the last possible moment B2 cowers and taking a side step moves away from the baseline but still within 3 feet of it. A1 hits him on the shoulder and both go down. Charge on A1.



[/B]

I would have to see this play. If dribbler bulls his way through and knocks down the opponent then i might have PC. when going between two players the dribble, (for lack of better words)can't bounce off the defender and the defender takes a hard shoulder foul.

Again, i would have to see the play. I most cases of shoulder contact the def. going down is flopping. Shoulder contact doesn't knock down opponent. And in this example, with the def. moving away to give room, I would be even less likely to believe the contact made him go down. I might even have block for flopping.

[RecRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Originally posted by RecRef


Stop.

So far, I have no call. What happened next?

A1 went down with both B1 and B2 still standing and looking down at him.