What's your call - player entering without being beckoned?

[dkmz17]

Saw this Saturday at a HS Varsity playoff game. Team A has the inbound on Team B's baseline. Referee is preparing to hand ball to A1 for the inbound. As Referee is handing ball to A1, Coach B decides to substitute and sends B6 up the sideline (Team B bench is on sideline on opposite end from throwin) to report. A1 inbounds the ball and the ball is in play when B6 just runs onto the court without being beckoned and with no horn from the table. B6 never really maade it to the table, but enters the court before midcourt. What is the proper call under NFHS rules?

[Jurassic Referee]

The correct call is a technical foul on B6 under rule 10-2. B6 has to report and be beckoned onto the court.

[Bad Zebra]

Doesn't matter if B6 made it to the table or not...what JR said..."T" will be served.

[dkmz17]

That's what I thought the call should be, but the referees just blew the play dead, allowed the substitute to enter and then had a new throw-in at the original spot. The subsititute was definitely not at, or even in the area of the table,when the ball was provided to A1 for the throw in. Even if one official blew the play dead erroneously, if the crew recognized the error, shouldn't the officials have forced the substitute to wait for the next dead ball to enter?

[JS 20]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

That's what I thought the call should be, but the referees just blew the play dead, allowed the substitute to enter and then had a new throw-in at the original spot. The subsititute was definitely not at, or even in the area of the table,when the ball was provided to A1 for the throw in. Even if one official blew the play dead erroneously, if the crew recognized the error, shouldn't the officials have forced the substitute to wait for the next dead ball to enter?

that can happen sometimes. score keeper blows the horn after it's already in play and if it kind of disorients the players and some of them stop, you may see them kill the play, take the ball OB again and make that sub wait until the next dead ball to enter

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JS 20

that can happen sometimes. score keeper blows the horn after it's already in play and if it kind of disorients the players and some of them stop, you may see them kill the play, take the ball OB again and make that sub wait until the next dead ball to enter

By rule(3-3-1d), you can't make the sub wait until the next dead ball. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[dkmz17]

Similar question - An Official is about to provide the ball to A1 for a throw in or for a free throw that, if missed will become a live ball, and he or she sees a player on the sideline for Team A or B get up, and while talking to the coach start to edge towards the table to report. Should the official hold the ball until the player reports and then allow the player to enter the game or should the official ignore what is going on at the bench? I see this quite a lot, and have even had officials provide the ball to the player for a throw in and then grab it back when they see a player heading to the table.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Similar question - An Official is about to provide the ball to A1 for a throw in or for a free throw that, if missed will become a live ball, and he or she sees a player on the sideline for Team A or B get up, and while talking to the coach start to edge towards the table to report. Should the official hold the ball until the player reports and then allow the player to enter the game or should the official ignore what is going on at the bench? I see this quite a lot, and have even had officials provide the ball to the player for a throw in and then grab it back when they see a player heading to the table.

Yep, this is why you should wait until the player(s) reaches that X that is in front of the scorers table.

During the conference with player(s) coach(s) and table personnel, as a game managment tool one should inform them that NO SUBS will be allowed unless they are on the THE X SPOT.

Officials have totally disregarded the X on the floor.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Similar question - An Official is about to provide the ball to A1 for a throw in or for a free throw that, if missed will become a live ball, and he or she sees a player on the sideline for Team A or B get up, and while talking to the coach start to edge towards the table to report. Should the official hold the ball until the player reports and then allow the player to enter the game or should the official ignore what is going on at the bench? I see this quite a lot, and have even had officials provide the ball to the player for a throw in and then grab it back when they see a player heading to the table.

Don't wait. Rule says substitutes shall be at the table waiting to enter...not walking towards the table. Might give a little leniency with the younger kids, but no tolerance at the high school level. If I'm in a good mood I might give the coach a freebie but say, "Coach, next time they have to be at the table before I wave them in." And usually that's good enough. Otherwise, they'll do it all night long.

[dkmz17]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yep, this is why you should wait until the player(s) reaches that X that is in front of the scorers table.

During the conference with player(s) coach(s) and table personnel, as a game managment tool one should inform them that NO SUBS will be allowed unless they are on the THE X SPOT.

Officials have totally disregarded the X on the floor.

So you are saying essentially ignore what is going on at the bench area and provide the ball for play unless a substitute is at the X , correct?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

So you are saying essentially ignore what is going on at the bench area and provide the ball for play unless a substitute is at the X , correct?

Correct, don't anticipate sub(s) keep the game moving.

[dkmz17]

Finally - when a timeout is over (the second horn has sounded) or a violation has occurred and the team in control of the inbound is ready to put the ball in play, why do officials wait, especially in HS Varsity ball, for the defensive team to set up a defense for the inbounds play or a press, etc, especially while the coach calls out instructions to his players?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Finally - when a timeout is over (the second horn has sounded) or a violation has occurred and the team in control of the inbound is ready to put the ball in play, why do officials wait, especially in HS Varsity ball, for the defensive team to set up a defense for the inbounds play or a press, etc, especially while the coach calls out instructions to his players?

That is another one of those managment tools you inform them of when you have the initial conference. We are playing on the second horn. Normally most are receptive to it. You have to keep in mind coaches; player are going to get away with as much as you allow them too.

So, if an official do what you stated that's an individual thing.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Finally - when a timeout is over (the second horn has sounded) or a violation has occurred and the team in control of the inbound is ready to put the ball in play, why do officials wait, especially in HS Varsity ball, for the defensive team to set up a defense for the inbounds play or a press, etc, especially while the coach calls out instructions to his players?

It seems you're suggesting we put the ball in play as soon as one team is ready to go. Do you also suggest we place the ball on the floor the moment the defense is ready but the offense is not? One doesn't make sense without the other.

Just because one team happens to be in a position to resume play doesn't mean the other team will be or could/should be. One of the players may be OOB from a failed effort to save an errant pass. Each team shoud have a very reasonable chance to get all players in desired positions. The advantage awarded the throwing team is merely a throwin...not a throwin without the other team being ready to defend it. Giving a teams an advantage on a throwin by being "quick" to get the ball in play is not something we should be doing....it will only lead to frustration (and probably a few T's) and a short career...there is no good that can come of it. We should be managing a game and ensuring "fair" opportunities to both teams.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Doesn't matter if B6 made it to the table or not...what JR said..."T" will be served.

"T will be served" © 2008 Bad Zebra