Juulie, I found your two 'worst officials'...

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

so with 1:30 to go we are going to take it up another notch and go "red zone" (intentional fouling that I had taught the boys last week). Even if they call 'em we can use some time up.

I don't get this at all. How can stopping the clock use some time up? Why would you want to send the other team to the line and then give them the ball back if you were ahead?

Maybe we should take a poll on that idiot thing. (note the winky face)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I don't get this at all. How can stopping the clock use some time up? Why would you want to send the other team to the line and then give them the ball back if you were ahead?

They only had 3 team fouls...no FTs were going to be taken....he wasn't saying it was an "Intentional" foul, but an intentional/deliberate/strategic foul designed to only draw a common foul. He was expecting the refs to not even call anything at all given the stuff they called all night but if they did call something he was OK with that....expecing that it would, if called at all, be a common foul.

Such fouling before the bonus can be beneficial. Even though the clock stops on the foul, each throwin situation will take "some" amount of time. When a team gets anywhere in what could be a threatening but not yet shooting situation, foul them. The throwin will likely be made to a postion less threatening....hence at least 2-3 seconds saved...probably 5-10 before they can work it back into a similar position.

In fact, Tennessee employed a similar stategy against Memphis on Saturday. UT was up 3 with little time remaining. Memphis, who shoots FT's poorly, had the ball. UT deliberated fouled....sending UM to the line for 1+1. And it worked....UM, IIRC, missed the first shot and UT got the rebound sealing the victory.

[SMEngmann]

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

[grunewar]

CA - while not in the same class game as you, I had one of two less experienced, adult refs dissappointingly work my son's semi final game this weekend too. Like you, I expected two Sr Officials. This guy usually does G7/8 and G9/10 and hadn't done a game at the B13/15 level all yr - bad decision by the assignor IMO - oh well. As others have said - gotta live with what you get.

He didn't do a stellar job, again IMO, but hey, ultimately, my boys lost by 3 because they were out played and made too many turnovers. Not by anything the official did or didn't do. The boys can whine and complain all they want (heck they're teenagers, that's what they do when things don't go their way) I would hear none of it and told em to stop complaining and play. As I always say - make ALL your layups and free throws and you'll win the game regardless of anything else....they didn't.

I coached, "chirped a bit", asked for a few calls and never gottem - oh well, I sat back down, accepted the calls, and continued to try and coach my best. What else can I do if I want to set the example? It was a great game, came down to the last seconds and we lost - period.

We won the regular season championship and finished 11-3 overall. The boys had a good run and didn't make it all the way. Just like all playoffs - only one team wins their last game of the season. There's always next yr.......

And now, this Sat, I ref the five league championship games.....and get to hear everyone talk bad about me!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

Very well said. I concur completely. Players at that age deserve better than what they got.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

Awesome post!

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber.

I dont know.. sometimes I think they actually prop a stiff up there... but.. cant really tell.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

CA

My only response is that if it was as bad as you say, I would have called a timeout and found a gym administrator or someone in charge of the tournament to discuss the safety of the players. If a resolution couldn't be found, I would have no problem pulling my players and forfeiting the game. I would not put my players in that kind of situation, primarily for safety sake. There is nothing to be learned, for kids this age, in a game of this nature.

Again, this is assuming the picture you painted was more correct than not....

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

CA

My only response is that if it was as bad as you say, I would have called a timeout and found a gym administrator or someone in charge of the tournament to discuss the safety of the players. If a resolution couldn't be found, I would have no problem pulling my players and forfeiting the game. I would not put my players in that kind of situation, primarily for safety sake. There is nothing to be learned, for kids this age, in a game of this nature.

Again, this is assuming the picture you painted was more correct than not....

They were just boys being boys. I would imagine this is exactly what would go on on any middle school playground when the boys are just left to their own devices. Helter skelter play. There was plenty of fouling and lots of violations, but all the boys were having fun. Crazed, zany, large-crowd-fueled lunacy.

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

The bottom line here is what you said in your OP which was that you instructed your kids to start fouling intentionally and that you should've done it earlier. In my opinion, that sort of attitude at that level disrespects the game of basketball and makes a travesty of the game. I'd be with you if you instructed your kids to be more aggressive and go for the steal, but telling them to foul intentionally makes a mockery of the game. Another thing, you start instructing 5th graders to foul intentionally like that, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit and a big can of worms. 5th graders don't know how to foul within the context of a game, you tell them to start fouling and a rugby game could break out as they go over the line. I remember when I was about that age and my coach told the team to make a strategic foul to stop the clock and one of the players on my team clotheslined the ball handler. Teach the game the right way and always respect the game, that's my only advice.