Juulie, I found your two 'worst officials'...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

Very well said. I concur completely. Players at that age deserve better than what they got.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber. That's not to say that there aren't many very professional referees who do a great job at that level, but considering your implied experience during the season that you shouldn't expect to have two of them. As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

Awesome post!

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

You should know as an official that you will likely never get the top refs for a 5th grade CYO final. It's just not gonna happen, at that level you get "warm body" caliber.

I dont know.. sometimes I think they actually prop a stiff up there... but.. cant really tell.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

As a coach (I coach HS baseball), I am appalled by your strategic machinations during this game. Not to be a preacher, but 5th grade basketball is about player development first, and regardless of how the game is being called, teaching players to foul other players intentionally has no place in the game of basketball. What kind of message does it send to your kids who experience a positive result from intentionally fouling and getting away with it from inept refs? Teach the kids the game the right way and teach discipline, don't teach them its OK to intentionally violate the rules. Don't condition them to respond to a missed call by retaliating against opponents. This is 5th grade basketball and the lack of integrity in coaching players to intentionally foul and then bragging about it as being your brilliant strategy while ripping the referees on a message board is incredible and shows a huge lack of respect for the game of basketball. Congratulations on that win coach, it was all you, go out and enjoy.

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

CA

My only response is that if it was as bad as you say, I would have called a timeout and found a gym administrator or someone in charge of the tournament to discuss the safety of the players. If a resolution couldn't be found, I would have no problem pulling my players and forfeiting the game. I would not put my players in that kind of situation, primarily for safety sake. There is nothing to be learned, for kids this age, in a game of this nature.

Again, this is assuming the picture you painted was more correct than not....

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

re: intentional fouls.

In preparation for the playoffs and tight end of game situtations, the boys needed to learn how to foul strategically. This is basketball. Our opponent in our semifinal game employed this strategy trailing by 4 with less than a minute to play. We missed all of our front end one-and-ones and they got their opportunities.

I may have expressed myself poorly in my rambling OP. I was bemoaning the fact that I have been trying to develop the skills of my players and take it to a higher level. Our success early in the season was due to our aggressive pressing style. I wanted to focus more on solid fundamental defense in the half court. We did that in the second half of the season. We had success.

In this game the tables were turned. The other team became the maniacal pressing team and was beating us up in the back court. My guys were getting pummelled, both on the floor and on the scoreboard.

So, while I could have taken some high road and just let things continue, the referees in this game were dictating what would be allowed. To win we had to respond. We adapted to the officials.

The bottom line here is what you said in your OP which was that you instructed your kids to start fouling intentionally and that you should've done it earlier. In my opinion, that sort of attitude at that level disrespects the game of basketball and makes a travesty of the game. I'd be with you if you instructed your kids to be more aggressive and go for the steal, but telling them to foul intentionally makes a mockery of the game. Another thing, you start instructing 5th graders to foul intentionally like that, you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit and a big can of worms. 5th graders don't know how to foul within the context of a game, you tell them to start fouling and a rugby game could break out as they go over the line. I remember when I was about that age and my coach told the team to make a strategic foul to stop the clock and one of the players on my team clotheslined the ball handler. Teach the game the right way and always respect the game, that's my only advice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

We caught other teams by surprise, beat them up a little, and got away with it.

We turned the dogs loose, beat the livin' crap out of the other team and pulled to within 4 at the end of 3.

We continue to beat the crap out of opposition and get away with it.

At this point I realize that maybe I should have gone to intentional foul mode much earlier, as these refs will not call fouls.

Anyways, we win by 3. Super effort by the boys, and I am ultimately genuinely shocked and appalled by the officiating tonight.

And I am genuinely shocked and appalled that any coach would go to those extremes with 5th. grade kids just to get a win. And I am even more shocked and appalled that the coach would come on an officials' forum and brag about it. And even worse, as a supposed official you recognized that you had inexperienced youth officials that are still learning, and you took full advantage of their inexperience in your quest for the almighty win. Did it ever cross your mind to think how you would have felt as an inexperienced official if you were put into that exact same situation by some dickhead coach?

You shouldn't be anywhere near youth basketball. You're sad. And if you're going to take your personal philosophy into officiating, we really don't need you in that avocation either.

Word.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I am genuinely shocked and appalled that any coach would go to those extremes with 5th. grade kids just to get a win. And I am even more shocked and appalled that the coach would come on an officials' forum and brag about it. And even worse, as a supposed official you recognized that you had inexperienced youth officials that are still learning, and you took full advantage of their inexperience in your quest for the almighty win. Did it ever cross your mind to think how you would have felt as an inexperienced official if you were put into that exact same situation by some dickhead coach?

You shouldn't be anywhere near youth basketball. You're sad. And if you're going to take your personal philosophy into officiating, we really don't need you in that avocation either.

Word.

Thanks for the support.

A few points. These are 5th grade boys. When we practice my number one task is to get them to stop wrestling each other. My wife who works in a middle school says this is what 5th grade boys do CONSTANTLY.

At our practices I've stopped having scrimmages, because the boys naturally devolve into sessions of pounding on each other. They are naturally inclined to behave this way. It has been my biggest challenge with them.

re: the officials in this game. These were not youth referees. These were adults who seem to have just come to watch the game. I made some comments to them early in the game about the fouling, but they weren't interested in communicating. I was never a dickhead with them by any measure.

My frustration is that after the work I had put in with the boys during the season, that our week 1 approach would be the go to strategy in our championship game.

read juulie's summation, she communicates better than me

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

read juulie's summation, she communicates better than me

I read Rainmaker's summation. For the record, I have about the same amount of respect for her summation as I have for yours. None.

Anybody that thinks that it's OK to go out and beat the crap out of fifth grade kids, no matter what the circumstances, shouldn't be allowed anywhere near those fifth grade kids imo. And taking advantage of inexperienced officials who are supposedly your peers is simply despicable, also imo.

The sad part is that you still can't figure out that what you did is wrong.

Enjoy your win, coach. Roll on the floor and laugh your head off. You certainly deserved the win from all of the coaching strategy that you used.

SMEngman had you pegged perfectly.

Sad.