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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:04am
Huck Finn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
I'm in Australia right now so my books are half a world away, but I believe whistling in subs was added to the NFHS manual this season.

I CAN'T STAND when a partner doesn't whistle in subs. Why? Because with a whistle I don't have to look to see if he/she has the subs or not and when there's no whistle, I do look.

I allow the horn to go and then a distinct whistle. Another sub comes up, another whistle.
If you look and you aren't the one who is supposed to bring the subs in per the pregame, it isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is on you. I don't actually believe that someone blows a whistle and you don't look; maybe someone else would buy that, but I don't.

I think you are right and it was put into the NFHS manual. While I have softened my stance on the issue during pregame, I still ask the table to give us one horn per dead ball for subs - one horn because if a coach runs one sub to the table at a time all those subs might not get in. I guess some of my mentors are anal because I was taught to do things a certain way, using common sense, and be consistent about them.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 09:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy
Well, the horn is official (although in Italy they use whistles also at the table ). It's the beckoning-in signal which turns a sub into a player, not the whistle.

Ciao
Yes the horn is the official scoreer signal but it does not turn the sub into a player, the whistle does.
4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
That's what I didn't agree with
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:21pm
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Lets say I come over to report a foul. "Black, 3-3, Hold, White underneath, SUBS..."

If I beckon while saying Subs, and the Horn sounds before I can grab my whistle to get the subs in... I don't see the point of a whistle.

My hand goes up, my partner ain't putting that ball in play till it goes down. The horn was another clue to him to wait, but he should be glancing at me before that ball goes back in anyway...

Most other situations... especially with a sloppy table, ball goes out, C or T looks at table and gives the whistle if necessary, and most likely, before the horn.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 09:05pm
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IAABO Mechanics

I just checked my IAABO (not NFHS) Mechanics Manual is it does not say to blow the whistle to beckon substitutes into the game. Something interesting that I did note. It states that a substitute shall not be beckoned it he, or she, reports just prior to the ball becoming alive. Interesting?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 11:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
If you look and you aren't the one who is supposed to bring the subs in per the pregame, it isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is on you. I don't actually believe that someone blows a whistle and you don't look; maybe someone else would buy that, but I don't.
I don't look until there's NO whistle, then I look at my partner (with sub responsibility) to make sure he's noticed the sub and is beckoning.

Sorry if I was unclear.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 11:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Lets say I come over to report a foul. "Black, 3-3, Hold, White underneath, SUBS..."

If I beckon while saying Subs, and the Horn sounds before I can grab my whistle to get the subs in... I don't see the point of a whistle.

My hand goes up, my partner ain't putting that ball in play till it goes down. The horn was another clue to him to wait, but he should be glancing at me before that ball goes back in anyway...

Most other situations... especially with a sloppy table, ball goes out, C or T looks at table and gives the whistle if necessary, and most likely, before the horn.
I don't beckon in this situation until there's a horn and by then there's a whistle in my mouth and I'm whistling in the subs.

We're consistent. We whistle in EVERY sub, except those that report during timeouts and intermissions.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 11:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
I think you are right and it was put into the NFHS manual. While I have softened my stance on the issue during pregame, I still ask the table to give us one horn per dead ball for subs - one horn because if a coach runs one sub to the table at a time all those subs might not get in. I guess some of my mentors are anal because I was taught to do things a certain way, using common sense, and be consistent about them.
I do not even like to tell them that. I have found when the table uses the horn; they tend to use the horn too early when the sub is not even at the table (especially the home team). I would rather blow the whistle or bring the subs in on my own. Players need to know that the officials bring in the subs, not the horn or the table.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 11:58pm
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Whistle on subs is a required mechanic for NCAA-W. It gets to be confusing at times because, in my area, whistles for subs during high school games is frowned upon. Also, both high school and college in my area, anything more than a single blast of the whistle on anything is extremely discouraged.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I do not even like to tell them that. I have found when the table uses the horn; they tend to use the horn too early when the sub is not even at the table (especially the home team). I would rather blow the whistle or bring the subs in on my own. Players need to know that the officials bring in the subs, not the horn or the table.

Peace
For the areas I have worked, it is all about communication. I will communicate what I want/need from the table, I will communicate when subs come in to the coach and I will communicate when the subs can come in to the captains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richmsn
I don't beckon in this situation until there's a horn and by then there's a whistle in my mouth and I'm whistling in the subs.

We're consistent. We whistle in EVERY sub, except those that report during timeouts and intermissions.
A horn and a whistle? Make perfect (non) sense.

Can someone on the board with 15+ years of experience tell me if this whistling in subs thing was around years ago? If not, can anyone tell me how it is better than an appropriate horn and me yelling, "Subs?" So far, it doesn't make sense to me. The posts concerning consistency are all well and good, but I don't believe every crew does this all the time which essentially makes it no diffferent than a table doing it correctly all the time - I don't know, maybe I live in the only place where this isn't done perfectly. When I blow my whistle I want it to mean something and I've seen officials blow their whistle for so many things, the value of the whistle goes down. I've seen a loose ball that was going to be inbounded bouncing away and an official blew his whistle to tell the player to get it for him instead of using his mouth. To me, that is ridiculous, but that is what happens when we start using the whistle too much. For those in favor of using the whistle, what do you do if subs come in before you "blow them in." Do you blow a whistle and shoo them back to the table? Do you tell them to go back to the table? Consistency would be blowing your whistle and motioning them back; we are substituting a whistle for time-tested use of words aren't we?

This isn't absolute for me because if I don't have a horn, I will blow the whistle.
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Last edited by tomegun; Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 07:42am.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 11:52am
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Is it just me, or is this a lot of hand-wringing over a whistle?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 12:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
Is it just me, or is this a lot of hand-wringing over a whistle?
I agree. Not everyone is going to agree because they come from so many different levels of acceptability for using the whistle.

Peace
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 28, 2008, 07:48pm
Huck Finn
 
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I love it when someone chooses to say it is a lot of "hand-wringing" over something when they run out of valid points to make or do not want to answer direct questions.

Uh...hello...aren't we disecting almost everything associated with basketball officiating on the Internet? We blew right past a lot of hand-wringing concerning many things a long time ago.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:16am
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I'm joining the debate a little late here, but I used to agree with tomegun. No need for whistles on subs most of the time.

Then I moved and came to an area where those working the table generally aren't as consistent and qualified as where I was. Now I whistle for subs. It prevents a lot of problems. I haven't found that it devalues my whistle. It does prevent my over-anxious partners from getting the ball in play before subbing is complete.

I happen to believe this is a lot of "hand-wringing" and not because I'm out of arguements. Just do what's appropriate for your area. Whistling is definitely appropriate here.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 10:24am
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We could add this to the 'Good Officating' thread.

If one is coaching and the officials are not getting your subs in without prompting, I think your stock as an official goes down.

If you are checking for subs, recognizing their presence, working well as a team to get subs in, catching that 'late add' sub after a made free-throw, etc. you don't get in the way of the coach's efforts.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 29, 2008, 12:01pm
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmp44
Also, both high school and college in my area, anything more than a single blast of the whistle on anything is extremely discouraged.

That got more to the root of my question. Although, the "whistle for subs" dialog was helpful. That's what's great about this board. You can ask one question and you may get two or three answered. Thanks.
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