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[truerookie]

Originally Posted by oldschool

Our state has a POE of whistling in subs. They feel you should respond to the whistle not the horn. The double whistle is not recommended.

Do you know the history behind your screen name?

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Crazy Voyager, why isn't it good enough to have a loud horn go off to let everyone know there are subs or something is happening?

Becuse the table is instructed not to sound the horn if there's an official coming up to report a foul. Then we use the whistle when beckoning the subs in.
Also becuse the horn isn't official, but when you blow your whistle and beckon them in they become players wich offect stuff like to whom a technical is charged (player insted of coach). But mostly becuse there is no horn when we go to report a foul, if there were I would agree with eg-italy that this is a terrible mechanic. But when there is no horn I like it

[oldschool]

truerookie I sense someone here was controversial in the past with my oldschool screen name. I am new to the board this year and just trying to learn as much as I can to become the best official I can. I an not sure how long ago this individual was on and don't know why he is not here any longer. I use this name on other boards so I think I will keep it and people will understand it is someone new. Thanks

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by oldschool

...and just trying to learn as much as I can to become the best official I can...

This one sentence proves that you are a different person than the one that defiled that screen name earlier. Welcome to the board.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

Becuse the table is instructed not to sound the horn if there's an official coming up to report a foul. Then we use the whistle when beckoning the subs in.
Also becuse the horn isn't official, but when you blow your whistle and beckon them in they become players wich offect stuff like to whom a technical is charged (player insted of coach). But mostly becuse there is no horn when we go to report a foul, if there were I would agree with eg-italy that this is a terrible mechanic. But when there is no horn I like it

Well, the horn is official (although in Italy they use whistles also at the table ). It's the beckoning-in signal which turns a sub into a player, not the whistle.

Ciao

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by oldschool

truerookie I sense someone here was controversial in the past with my oldschool screen name. I am new to the board this year and just trying to learn as much as I can to become the best official I can. I an not sure how long ago this individual was on and don't know why he is not here any longer. I use this name on other boards so I think I will keep it and people will understand it is someone new. Thanks

Thx, and welcome to the most knowledgable place to learn and grow. JMO.

[btaylor64]

What would you guys think of changing to a new mechanic of allowing the official who is administering the FT's or throw-in to wave in the subs? It would rarely if ever need a whistle and that person can be the determining factor as to whether the player is allowed to come in or not. Just a thought.

[Kelvin green]

Would love your idea. NBA uses this philosophy alot.... Makes for less confusion on subs

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Crazy Voyager, why isn't it good enough to have a loud horn go off to let everyone know there are subs or something is happening?

How about because I normally tell my table that if I'm doing my job correctly, and checking the table at each dead ball, they shouldn't need to blow the horn for subs.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

How about because I normally tell my table that if I'm doing my job correctly, and checking the table at each dead ball, they shouldn't need to blow the horn for subs.

How about if you tell your table to give one horn during a dead ball to let everyone in the facility know you have a sub? Who said that it means you aren't doing your job if the table blows a horn for a sub? I notice the subs, but I think blowing my whistle continuously de-values it. Additionally, I have no problem verbalizing a sub at the table, along with the horn, so my partner's will know. I have even seen some officials use the whistle to communicate things will players like when they want a player to get a ball for them - basically substituting the whistle for their voice. If the ultimate goal is to get the subs into the game, we are talking about what occurs to make that happen. Using the whistle to accomplish this may or may not make an official's other whistles mean less. However, there is no way using the horn to bring subs in will have this effect.

Btaylor, nice try, but you aren't the only one who knows some pro rules. At least give some of us credit and come right out and recognize what you are suggesting is a NBA mechanic. BTW, it works (your suggestion), but I don't think we are talking about failure to recognize a sub.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

How about because I normally tell my table that if I'm doing my job correctly, and checking the table at each dead ball, they shouldn't need to blow the horn for subs.

I've heard several veteran officials mention to the table when they come in for their meeting that we DO want a horn on every sub. The reasoning is that by them sounding the horn they are indicating to us that the player is in the book correctly, has reported correctly, etc. -- basically that everything is good for that player to enter the game.

Makes sense to me... also, no harm in them blowing the horn for the sub -- that is the accepted way to indicate subs waiting at the table.

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In 3-man I've definitely gone away from hitting my whistle for subs on free throws. I will hit the whistle on non-free throws if I'm the table-side New Lead and a horn hasn't gone off by the time I'm ready to pass the subs off to the "C". But on free throws I'm not hitting the whistle unless the Lead isn't paying attention or if it's the last free throw (made, of course) and the horn is slow.

In our association, we've gone to using the whistle on subs when there IS going to be a FT. The reason why we do this is because if a substitute is beckoned onto the court to replace a player lined up in a lane space, the whistle "guarantees" that we're not going to have a lane violation in the exchange of players.

Ideally, all officials will always be on the same page and this wouldn't be necessary, but we don't always live in an ideal world. The new practice was put into place after a high-profile substitute-induced-lane-violation at an inopportune time....

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

Well, the horn is official (although in Italy they use whistles also at the table ). It's the beckoning-in signal which turns a sub into a player, not the whistle.

Ciao

19.3.4 The substitute shall remain outside the boundary line until the official gives the substitution signal and beckons him to enter the playing court.

4.1.3 During playing time, a team member is:
• A player when he is on the playing court and is entitled to play.
• A substitute when he is not on the playing court but he is entitled to play.

4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
• During a time-out or an interval of play, a substitute requests the substitution to the scorer.

Ther horn is never mentioned, a player becomes a player and is allowed to enter the court when the official beckons him/her in. Not when the horn sounds.

The horn is not official and a player is not allowed to enter at the horn. The horn is only a way for the scorer to communicate to the officials that a substitute is ready (or in some other way make contact with the officiating crew). It is not an official signal and I don't understand why you use it for subs in italy, it's imo unnessesary (unless the official doesn't recognise the sub, then the scorer should use it to notifiy the official).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

If you did a game with me, I would have more important things to worry about. I'm often amazed at how things like this are scrutinized so much at the high school level (college too) yet there are so many officials who should use their game fees to buy a clue!

Edit: that came out wrong. I'm not saying you would make me worry about other things. I'm saying that there are more important things to worry about than how many times someone blows a whistle. What annoys me is officials blowing the whistle to communicate everything like subs, fouls, subs, violations, subs, out of bounds and...subs. It kind of de-values the whistle when it is used for everything.

I'm in Australia right now so my books are half a world away, but I believe whistling in subs was added to the NFHS manual this season.

I CAN'T STAND when a partner doesn't whistle in subs. Why? Because with a whistle I don't have to look to see if he/she has the subs or not and when there's no whistle, I do look.

I allow the horn to go and then a distinct whistle. Another sub comes up, another whistle.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

19.3.4 The substitute shall remain outside the boundary line until the official gives the substitution signal and beckons him to enter the playing court.

4.1.3 During playing time, a team member is:
• A player when he is on the playing court and is entitled to play.
• A substitute when he is not on the playing court but he is entitled to play.

4.2.3 A substitute becomes a player and a player becomes a substitute when:
• The official beckons the substitute to enter the playing court.
• During a time-out or an interval of play, a substitute requests the substitution to the scorer.

Ther horn is never mentioned, a player becomes a player and is allowed to enter the court when the official beckons him/her in. Not when the horn sounds.

The horn is not official and a player is not allowed to enter at the horn. The horn is only a way for the scorer to communicate to the officials that a substitute is ready (or in some other way make contact with the officiating crew). It is not an official signal and I don't understand why you use it for subs in italy, it's imo unnessesary (unless the official doesn't recognise the sub, then the scorer should use it to notifiy the official).

I didn't say that a substitute can enter the court at the horn. Please, read my message. The horn is the official signal of the scorekeeper.