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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 01:58pm
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Over and Back

rule verification. One of our association member refs had this happen: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt. A1 dribbles ball off own foot. Ball goes across midcourt, hits the shin of A2 who has both feet in front court. Ball bounces right back to A1 who is still in backcourt. A1 grabs ball and dribbles across half court. Ref calls over and back. Correct call?
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 02:19pm
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I would have called the same thing. In the '05-'06 casebook, 4.4.4 says, "A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location." IMO, the ball achieved front court status by touching A2 on the shin, it rebounded into the back court and was first touched by an A player. 9.9.1 says, 'A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.' Seems to be cut and dry to me, but the fans aren't informed and when you make the proper call, everyone goes nuts because they get their rule knowledge TV. Case book 9.9.1C from 05-06 has a similar situation for you.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 02:20pm
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Yes -- all 4 criteria were met:

1) Team Control
2) Ball in FC
3) A last to touch
4) A first to touch
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 02:27pm
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It's also over and back when there is a 'scrum' as I would call it near the division line, where two teams are fighting over a loose ball. If A last touches it in the front court in this chase for the ball, and they are the first to touch it in the back court, then you have O&B there as well as far as I am concerned. Team control exists when the ball is being passed and during an interrupted dribble. Again, the fans don't like the call, but in most cases, I've taken the approach that O&B is much easier call to make most of the time because the rule takes the guess work on how the ball made it into the back court, who touched it last and then first, etc. It then becomes a judgement on who you saw touch it last and if it's close, you can usually get away with making a no-call when in the back court. But I guarantee, most people in the stands do not understand this rule.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 03:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckrog64
It's also over and back when there is a 'scrum' as I would call it near the division line, where two teams are fighting over a loose ball. If A last touches it in the front court in this chase for the ball, and they are the first to touch it in the back court, then you have O&B there as well as far as I am concerned. Team control exists when the ball is being passed and during an interrupted dribble. Again, the fans don't like the call, but in most cases, I've taken the approach that O&B is much easier call to make most of the time because the rule takes the guess work on how the ball made it into the back court, who touched it last and then first, etc. It then becomes a judgement on who you saw touch it last and if it's close, you can usually get away with making a no-call when in the back court. But I guarantee, most people in the stands do not understand this rule.
Only if Team A had control before the scrum, right?
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 03:42pm
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Right, Team A still has team control during a loose ball. 4-12-4
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 04:07pm
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I wouldn't put this one all on the fans. IMO the scenario-Team A with team control in frontcourt, then B forces loose ball, but A is last to touch in frontcourt, and first to touch in backcourt is the most mis-applied no-call in our state. I don't know if it's the game interruptor theory or what-but guys (saw a state finals official pass on one last week) pretty consistently let it slide, and when someone actually does correctly call the violation, all hell breaks loose.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 04:31pm
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Agreed, team A was in control before the scrum and they were the last to touch. Jesse is also correct, I see guys let this go for whatever reason and when it is called properly, it's not pretty in the eyes of the fans.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 04:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse James
IMO the scenario-Team A with team control in frontcourt, then B forces loose ball, but A is last to touch in frontcourt, and first to touch in backcourt is the most mis-applied no-call in our state.
This year, I had a coupla crowds standing on that play.
I don't care.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 08:28pm
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smart *** response...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski
rule verification. One of our association member refs had this happen: A1 is dribbling in his/her backcourt. A1 dribbles ball off own foot. Ball goes across midcourt, hits the shin of A2 who has both feet in front court. Ball bounces right back to A1 who is still in backcourt. A1 grabs ball and dribbles across half court. Ref calls over and back. Correct call?
There is no violation called "over and back" in my rule book.
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Old Fri Feb 22, 2008, 11:24pm
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Proper Vocabulary ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmeadski
Ball goes across midcourt
Do we still have a midcourt? I thought that went away when the 28 foot hashmarks went away. The hash marks divided the frontcourt into a forecourt and a midcourt. These were used for 5 second closely guarded calls, and for lack of action calls.

Did you mean the ball crosses the division line?
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Old Sat Feb 23, 2008, 04:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
There is no violation called "over and back" in my rule book.
You are absolutely correct, and this is also one of my termiology pet peeves - right up there with "over the back". The correct call is "back court violation".
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Old Sat Feb 23, 2008, 07:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
There is no violation called "over and back" in my rule book.
I think this means you are no longer a first year ref.
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