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Old Tue Feb 12, 2008, 10:10pm
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Question Resumption of Play????

A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting.

As Referee is reporting the foul, and before the teams have lined up for the free throws, A1 and B1 begin to mouth at each other and U1 calls a double technical...

After reporting the double technicals, what is the resumption of play procedure in the case play?




FYI... Not knowing exactly what we should do we chose to put the players around the lane and let them resume play with the results of the free throw. The only case we could find in the case book that resembled this play had the shooter already having the ball in his/her hands before the double foul occured. It said there that you resumed play with the free throws. I know this play is somewhat different so I figured I would bring it here.
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2008, 10:19pm
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Joseph, have you read the definition of "Point of Interruption"? (4-36-2(b), to be exact.)

In your case, you do not use the resumption of play procedure, as that is described in 4-38.
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Old Tue Feb 12, 2008, 11:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph2493
A1 is fouled by B1 in the act of shooting.

As Referee is reporting the foul, and before the teams have lined up for the free throws, A1 and B1 begin to mouth at each other and U1 calls a double technical...

After reporting the double technicals, what is the resumption of play procedure in the case play?




FYI... Not knowing exactly what we should do we chose to put the players around the lane and let them resume play with the results of the free throw. The only case we could find in the case book that resembled this play had the shooter already having the ball in his/her hands before the double foul occured. It said there that you resumed play with the free throws. I know this play is somewhat different so I figured I would bring it here.

This is a False Double Foul under both NFHS and NCAA.

NFHS Rules: The fouls are penalized in the order that they ocurred. A1 will shoot two free throws due to B1 personal foul with no players lined up on the free throw lane. The ball is then awarded to the team with the AP Arrow for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table for an AP Throw-in.

NCAA Rules: The double technical foul is a Point of Interruption situation. A1 will shot is free throws for B1's personal foul as if that was the only foul that occurred.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 01:23am
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Sure ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
NFHS Rules: The fouls are penalized in the order that they ocurred. A1 will shoot two free throws due to B1 personal foul with no players lined up on the free throw lane. The ball is then awarded to the team with the AP Arrow for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table for an AP Throw-in.MTD, Sr.
Respectfully, are you sure? You could be right about this being a false double foul, but, unlike a regular false double foul, it seems that the double technical foul complicates the situation. Could the correct procedure, as with all double fouls, be to go back to the point of interuption, which in this case would be to shot the foul shot with players along the lane lines?
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 01:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Respectfully, are you sure? Could the correct procedure be to go back to the point of interruption, which in this case would be to shoot the foul shots with players along the lane lines?

I'm with you, except, maybe, for the respectful part.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 05:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
This is a False Double Foul under both NFHS and NCAA.

NFHS Rules: The fouls are penalized in the order that they ocurred. A1 will shoot two free throws due to B1 personal foul with no players lined up on the free throw lane. The ball is then awarded to the team with the AP Arrow for a throw-in at the division line opposite the Scorer's/Timer's Table for an AP Throw-in.
The only part of this that you got right is that it's a false double foul. Rule 4-36-2(b) is the applicable rule, The POI is A1 shooting 2 FT's with players on the lanes.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 07:36am
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MTD must have bumped his head climbing up into his attic.

The NFHS stopped doing it that way three years ago.

The NFHS now handles this in the same manner as the NCAA.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 07:57am
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We went with Point of Interuption for resuming play last night...putting the players around the lane during the free throw...

The part that threw us was I remember point of interuption but I couldn't shake the thought that we hadn't lined up yet and my partners kepting throwing that at me.

Luckily we seemed to have handled it correctly.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 08:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
MTD must have bumped his head climbing up into his attic.

The NFHS stopped doing it that way three years ago.

The NFHS now handles this in the same manner as the NCAA.

NFHS R4-S36-A1: "Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10."

NFHS R4-S36-A2: "Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved."

NFHS R10, Penalty 7: "In the case of a false double foul or false multiple foul, each foul carries its own penalty."


We have a false double foul in the situation. The first foul that occured was the personal foul by B1 against A1. The second foul that occured was the double technical foul by A1 and B1. R10, Penalty 7 tells us that when we have a false double foul, each foul carries its own penalty; that means the fouls are penalized in the order that they occurred and that the ball is put back into play as if the only foul that occured was the last foul in the sequence. The last foul in this sequence was the double technical foul by A1 and B1.

I agree, that the double technical foul by A1 and B1, by definition, is a Point of Interruption. But it is the last foul in a false double foul and because it occured when neither team was in control of the ball when it occured, R4-S36-A2c tells us that the AP Arrow is the method used to put the ball back into play. R4-S36-A2b is not the applicable rule because the double technical foul occured while B1's personal foul was being reported.

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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 08:38am.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 09:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
NFHS R4-S36-A1: "Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10."

NFHS R4-S36-A2: "Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved."

NFHS R10, Penalty 7: "In the case of a false double foul or false multiple foul, each foul carries its own penalty."


We have a false double foul in the situation. The first foul that occured was the personal foul by B1 against A1. The second foul that occured was the double technical foul by A1 and B1. R10, Penalty 7 tells us that when we have a false double foul, each foul carries its own penalty; that means the fouls are penalized in the order that they occurred and that the ball is put back into play as if the only foul that occured was the last foul in the sequence. The last foul in this sequence was the double technical foul by A1 and B1.

I agree, that the double technical foul by A1 and B1, by definition, is a Point of Interruption. But it is the last foul in a false double foul and because it occured when neither team was in control of the ball when it occured, R4-S36-A2c tells us that the AP Arrow is the method used to put the ball back into play. R4-S36-A2b is not the applicable rule because the double technical foul occured while B1's personal foul was being reported.

MTD, Sr.
Sigh.....

A double technical foul is an infraction of the rules, Mark. Seriously. I wouldn't lie to you.

The double technical foul occurred DURING the free throw activity. Not that it matters anyway, because 4-36-2(b) also states "if a team is entitled to such.". Well, team A is entitled to 2 FT's ,aren't they? 'Splain that one away.

Rule 4-36-2(b) couldn't be more explicit. And you couldn't be more wrong.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 09:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I agree, that the double technical foul by A1 and B1, by definition, is a Point of Interruption. But it is the last foul in a false double foul and because it occured when neither team was in control of the ball when it occured, R4-S36-A2c tells us that the AP Arrow is the method used to put the ball back into play. R4-S36-A2b is not the applicable rule because the double technical foul occured while B1's personal foul was being reported.

MTD, Sr.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you had jsut mis-read the play. Heaven knows, I've done that often enough.

But, it seems as though you're just mistaken.

See 4.19.8D for a case that's pretty darn close to the OP.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I agree, that the double technical foul by A1 and B1, by definition, is a Point of Interruption. But it is the last foul in a false double foul and because it occured when neither team was in control of the ball when it occured, R4-S36-A2c tells us that the AP Arrow is the method used to put the ball back into play. R4-S36-A2b is not the applicable rule because the double technical foul occured while B1's personal foul was being reported.

MTD, Sr.
But it did occur with another infraction involved. The AP is only used when neither team has control AND your don't have some other action that dictates who should get the ball (a made goal; a different, prior foul; a violation). It is not unlike having a double foul on a throwin...the throwing team gets the ball back even though they don't have team control.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 01:18pm
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Something that I have found is usually (but not always, I admit) helpful in figuring out the POI is to ask "What would we do now if the double foul had never happened?"

In the situation in the original post, the answer is to line up and shoot the free throws. That's the correct POI.
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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 01:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you had jsut mis-read the play. Heaven knows, I've done that often enough.

But, it seems as though you're just mistaken.

See 4.19.8D for a case that's pretty darn close to the OP.


Bob:

In the Casebook Play you reference, A1 already has player control of the ball, hence there is team control of the ball, but in the OP, the official is still reporting B1's personal foul when the double technical foul by A1 and B1 occurs. The game had not yet progressed to free throw activity of B1's personal foul when the double technical foul occurred.


NFHS R10, Penalty 7: "In the case of a false double foul or false multiple foul, each foul carries its own penalty."

NCAA R10-S1, Penalty g: "In the case of a false double foul or a false multiple foul, each foul shall carry its own penalty. When one of the fouls is a technical foul, the ball shall be put back in play at the point of interruption."


The NFHS Rules Committee may have wanted its Penalty 7 to be the same as the NCAA's Penalty g, but Penalty 7's wording stops short of saying the same thing that Penalty g's wording says. JR has referenced NFHS R4-S36-A2b, and that is one of the two rules that are referenced in Bob's NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.8 Situation D. The other rule referenced in the Casebook Play is R7S5-A3b; both of the rules referenced in the Casebook Play are the applicable rules for that play. I would concede JR, et al's point if A1's free throw activity had started: that being anytime after the players had lined up for the free throws. But in the OP that activity had not been reached, and NFHS R10, Penalty 7 is not the same as NCAA R10-S1, Penalty g.

Maybe this is a play that needs to be addressed by the NFHS Rules Committee. I think that we call all agree the Point of Interruption rule in both the NFHS and NCAA does cause more problems than it solves. Five years ago we would not be having this discussion because it would have been so easy to administer in both NFHS and NCAA.

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Old Wed Feb 13, 2008, 01:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Something that I have found is usually (but not always, I admit) helpful in figuring out the POI is to ask "What would we do now if the double foul had never happened?"

In the situation in the original post, the answer is to line up and shoot the free throws. That's the correct POI.

Scraper1:

That is a good point, and it is a question I always ask in an NCAA game, but it is my humble opinion that the NFHS rules are slightly ambiguous with regard to the play we are discussing because NFHS R10, Penalty 7 is so direct in is implicatioin that false double fouls are penalized in the order that they occur.

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