From the 1st Year: Created a little test for myself...

[ca_rumperee]

A couple of weeks into the season there was a large brouhaha in a game my association covers. Players going at it, parents streaming onto the floor. Coaches/parents squaring off. As a 1st year, I can tell you nothing sounds more awful to occur, especially because I would be totally unprepared to 'resolve' things properly.

So I got the rulebook out, figured things out a little, and decided to create some scenarios. In these, you and your partner(s) are fantastically fastidious record keepers!

At the end of each scenario, list:
How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

In all scenarios there is no foul that causes the fight to erupt. The ignition incident is unobserved... suddenly players are going at it! Players leave the bench, some join fight, some are peacemakers.

Scenario 1:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Scenario 2:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 3 White, 3 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-


Scenario 3:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 3 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Scenario 4:
Players Fighting: 2 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 2 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 2 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

In all scenarios there is no foul that causes the fight to erupt. The ignition incident is unobserved... suddenly players are going at it! Players leave the bench, some join fight, some are peacemakers.

Scenario 1:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

I have 3 players on floor given Flagrant Fouls: 1 W, 2 B
----all 3 are disqualified
I have 3 fighting players from bench given Flagrant fouls: 1 W, 2 B
---all 3 are disqualified
I have 6 bench players who left bench to break it up: 5 W, 1 B
---all 6 are disqualified.
so, 12 players disqualified: 7 W 5B

Each of the fighting bench players earned their coaches indirect techs:
1 W, 2 B
Each team had players leave the bench and not particpate in fight--
max of 1 indirect tech on coach, so each coach gets one: 1 W, 1 B

Total indirects on coaches: 2 W, 3 B -- Coach B is disqualified.

Free Throws:
Floor players fighting: Team W shoots 2 FTs
Bench players fighting: Team W shoots 2 FTs
Bench players NOT fighting: unequal number, maximum of 1 technical , so Team B shoots 2 FTS

Who gets the ball? Dunno

[Nevadaref]

In each case my answers are in red and I consider all technical fouls involved with the fracas to be simultaneous.

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Scenario 1:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected? 3, and an additional 9 TEAM MEMBERS.
Is coach ejected? White's coach gets 2 indirects and stays, Blue's coach gets 3 and leaves.
Which team shoots... 2+2-2 = 2 for White, plus the ball.
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Scenario 2:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 3 White, 3 Blue

How many players ejected? 2, and an additional 8 TEAM MEMBERS.
Is coach ejected? Both coaches get 2 indirects and stay.
Which team shoots... Everything balances out here and NO FTs are awarded. The game resumes at the POI.
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Scenario 3:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 3 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected? 2, and an additional 10 TEAM MEMBERS.
Is coach ejected? White's coach gets 2 indirects and stays; Blue's coach gets 4 indirects and leaves.
Which team shoots...0+4-2 = 2 for White, plus the ball.
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Scenario 4:
Players Fighting: 2 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 2 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 2 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected? 4, and an additional 6 TEAM MEMBERS.
Is coach ejected? White's coach gets 3 indirects and is gone; Blue's coach gets 2 indirects and stays.
Which team shoots...0+2+2= 4 for Blue, plus the ball.
...how many FT's?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I have 3 players on floor given Flagrant Fouls: 1 W, 2 B
----all 3 are disqualified
I have 3 fighting players from bench given Flagrant fouls: 1 W, 2 B
---all 3 are disqualified
I have 6 bench players who left bench to break it up: 5 W, 1 B
---all 6 are disqualified.
so, 12 players disqualified: 7 W 5B

I'm nitpicking your terminology here. By definition there can only be a maximum of 10 players at any point in the game. The people on the bench aren't "players." See 4-34-1.

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Free Throws:
Floor players fighting: Team W shoots 2 FTs
Bench players fighting: Team W shoots 2 FTs
Bench players NOT fighting: unequal number, maximum of 1 technical , so Team B shoots 2 FTS

Who gets the ball? Dunno

This case book play demonstrates that the FTs from categories 2 and 3 can offset. The NFHS has never issued one that clearly shows that categories 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 can cancel, but I believe that the intent is for them to do so. It greatly simplifies the process to do it that way. I'd love to see the federation clarify this point.


10.4.5 SITUATION E: A1 and B1 begin fighting and play is stopped. Substitute A6 leaves the bench area and enters the court to observe. B6 also enters the court at the same time, but B6 actually participates in the fight. RULING: A1, B1, A6 and B6 are all disqualified. No free throws result from the double flagrant foul by A1 and B1 or from the simultaneous technical fouls by A6 and B6. Each head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul. Play resumes at the point of interruption. (4-36; 10-3-9)

[crazy voyager]

I have posted my answers in red... And this isn't fun, even though I havn't had it quite this bad...
See the bottom for rule refrences

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

A couple of weeks into the season there was a large brouhaha in a game my association covers. Players going at it, parents streaming onto the floor. Coaches/parents squaring off. As a 1st year, I can tell you nothing sounds more awful to occur, especially because I would be totally unprepared to 'resolve' things properly.

So I got the rulebook out, figured things out a little, and decided to create some scenarios. In these, you and your partner(s) are fantastically fastidious record keepers!

At the end of each scenario, list:
How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?

In all scenarios there is no foul that causes the fight to erupt. The ignition incident is unobserved... suddenly players are going at it! Players leave the bench, some join fight, some are peacemakers.

Scenario 1:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?
Fighting players from white and blue DQ'ed
PLayers leaving bench are all charged with Fighting fouls and ejected Coaches of each teams are charged with 1 Bench tecnical foul.
This means we have White 2 FT's and ball since the rest of the penalties get cancelled (B Tech for B tech and 1 D for 1 D)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Scenario 2:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 3 White, 3 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?
Fighting players blue and white DQ'ed.
Other players all charged with Fighting fouls and coaches one B-tech each.
Play resumes at POI (no FT's)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-


Scenario 3:
Players Fighting: 1 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 1 White, 3 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 5 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?
Same scenario, fighitng players on the court Disqualifying fouls.
Bench personell charged with Fighting fouls.
Coaches one B-tech each.
Game resumes at POI
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Scenario 4:
Players Fighting: 2 White, 2 Blue
Bench personnel fighting: 2 White, 1 Blue
Bench personnel peacemakers: 2 White, 1 Blue

How many players ejected?
Is coach ejected?
Which team shoots...
...how many FT's?
And same thing
Fighting players Disqualifying fouls
Bench personell Fighting fouls
Coaches one B-tech
Game resumes at POI
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-

Now for the rules, intresting parts in red
Art. 39 Fighting
39.1 Definition
Fighting is physical interaction between two or more opponents (players, substitutes, coaches, assistant coaches and team followers).
This article only applies to substitutes, coaches, assistant coaches and team followers who leave the confines of the team bench area during a fight or during any situation which may lead to a fight.
39.2 Rule
39.2.1 Substitutes or team followers who leave the team bench area during a fight, or during any situation which may lead to a fight, shall be disqualified.
39.2.2 Only the coach and/or assistant coach is permitted to leave the team bench area during a fight, or during any situation which may lead to a fight, to assist the officials to maintain or to restore order. In this situation, he shall not be disqualified.
39.2.3 If a coach and/or assistant coach leaves the team bench area and does not assist or attempt to assist the officials to maintain or to restore order, he shall be disqualified.

39.3 Penalty
39.3.1 Irrespective of the number of coaches, assistant coaches, substitutes or team followers disqualified for leaving the team bench area, a single technical foul ('B') shall be charged against the coach.
39.3.2 If members of both teams are disqualified under this article and there are no other foul penalties remaining for administration, the game shall be resumed as follows.
If at approximately the same time as the game was stopped because of the fighting:
• A valid field goal is scored, the ball shall be awarded to the non-scoring team for a throw-in at any place at the endline.
• A team had control of the ball or was entitled to the ball, the ball shall be awarded to this team for a throw-in at the centre line extended, opposite the scorer’s table.
• Neither team has control of the ball nor was entitled to the ball, a jump ball situation occurs.
39.3.3 All disqualifying fouls shall be recorded as described in B.8.3 and shall not count as a team foul.
39.3.4 All foul penalties occurring before the fighting situation shall be dealt with in accordance with Art. 42 (Special situations).

Art. 42 Special situations
42.1 Definition
42.1.1 In the same stopped-clock period which follows an infraction, special situations may arise when additional foul(s) are committed.
42.2 Procedure
42.2.1 All fouls shall be charged and all penalties identified.
42.2.2 The order in which all fouls occurred shall be determined.
42.2.3 All equal penalties against the teams and all double foul penalties shall be cancelled in the order they were called. Once the penalties have been cancelled they are considered as never having occurred.
42.2.4 The right to possession of the ball as part of the last penalty still to be administered shall cancel any prior rights to possession of the ball.'


That should cover it
Overall, if you're a bench player and a fight breaks out, if you leave the bench you are out of the game. No matter what you acctually did
How ever, the coach is only charged with one T for players leaving the bench.
Fighting players (on the court) are disqualified for fighting. These fouls are adminstered as normal and count as team fouls, fighting fouls don't.
Fighting fouls are only(!) charged for unauthorised beanch personell leaving the beanch during a fight or a situation wich could lead to one.

Overall, this means you can throw out half the players around and still not shot more then 2 FT's, if even that.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I'm nitpicking your terminology here. By definition there can only be a maximum of 10 players at any point in the game. The people on the bench aren't "players." See 4-34-1.

I tried to avoid that mistake. Failed. Language is important.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In each case my answers are in red and I consider all technical fouls involved with the fracas to be simultaneous.

to treat all as simultaneous?

It certainly simplifies things a little in a sea of chaos.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This case book play demonstrates that the FTs from categories 2 and 3 can offset. The NFHS has never issued one that clearly shows that categories 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 can cancel, but I believe that the intent is for them to do so. It greatly simplifies the process to do it that way. I'd love to see the federation clarify this point.

I've had this question in several pre-games this year, as there have been a strangely high number of fights around my area this year (only one "incident" that I was an official for, and it didn't have any actual fighting), and nobody seems to agree, though the consensus is that Ts for fighting by players are handled separately from Ts for bench personnel fighting and bench personnel simply leaving the bench.

I don't agree, but that's what the more seasoned officials have all agreed on around here. I'm with you that the NFHS issuing a clear ruling would be handy.

[Nevadaref]

I used to hold that same opinion myself, but have recently changed. If the bench reaction is clearly after the players on the court start going at it, I have no problem handling it that way, but if all of the mess happens more or less at the same time or the spark incident isn't observed then how does one know what took place first?

What if a team member on the bench starts it by saying something to an opposing player and then there are people running all over the place?

My current advice is to keep it as simple as possible and shoot as few FTs as necessary.