False Multiple ??

[just another ref]

Too much mention of keeping people happy. A simple grab of the jersey after the ball is dead is easy to ignore.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Too much mention of keeping people happy. A simple grab of the jersey after the ball is dead is easy to ignore.

Please keep in mind that the ball was dead because of the common foul, not because I blew my whistle. What about the general rule that fouls during dead balls should be ignored unless they're flagrant, or intentional. No one in the gym had a problem understanding that a player's jersey being grabbed, when he is about to beat his man to the basket, especially during the last few minutes of a game, in which one team is trying to foul, was a simple intentional foul. So, if no one had a problem with this being called an intentional foul, how, according to the rules, can it be ignored?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Please keep in mind that the ball was dead because of the common foul, not because I blew my whistle. What about the general rule that fouls during dead balls should be ignored unless they're flagrant, or intentional. No one in the gym had a problem understanding that a player's jersey being grabbed, when he is about to beat his man to the basket, especially during the last few minutes of a game, in which one team is trying to foul, was a simple intentional foul. So, if no one had a problem with this being called an intentional foul, how, according to the rules, can it be ignored?

The player in this situation was not about to beat his man anywhere. That's why you don't make this call. I don't think the intent of the note in 4-19-1 was to make a call in this situation. Part of the definition of intentional foul includes the phrase "not based solely on the severity of the act." This says to me that the severity of the act is a factor. If the defender simply grabs the jersey, then immediately releases, forget it. Look at it this way. At any point in the game after a foul is called the defender may grab his opponent, to hold him up, to pat him on the back, or whatever. The grab, while intentionally done, in and of itself, need not be a foul.

[Reffing Rev.]

Game I was watching from the bleachers Friday night, NCAA rules. A1 is driving on a fast break, B1 who has hustled in front of A1 attempts a block. A1 and B1 are in the air as is B2 who is trying a block from behind A1. Whistle blows for foul on B1 and then B2 nails A1 just after he releases the ball for a try. Doesn't this warrant a multiple foul? or does that call exist anymore?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Game I was watching from the bleachers Friday night, NCAA rules. A1 is driving on a fast break, B1 who has hustled in front of A1 attempts a block. A1 and B1 are in the air as is B2 who is trying a block from behind A1. Whistle blows for foul on B1 and then B2 nails A1 just after he releases the ball for a try. Doesn't this warrant a multiple foul? or does that call exist anymore?

If A1 was still airborne then by rule it is a multiple foul. I personally, would never call it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

At any point in the game after a foul is called the defender may grab his opponent, to hold him up, to pat him on the back, or whatever. The grab, while intentionally done, in and of itself, need not be a foul.

I agree, but, in this case, the purpose of White player was to foul the Red player to stop the clock. If it were a hold, a block, or illegal use of hands, unless extra hard, it would probalby have been a common foul. In these situations, a hard two-hand push from behind, a bear hug, or a grab of the jersey, are often called, with little disagreement from coaches, intentional fouls.

Again, even though I could call, by the book, two fouls, I'm only calling one, in most cases the intentional foul. The only person in the gym who knows for sure that there was a common foul before the intenrtional foul was me, and I'm not telling anyone. This seems to fit my interpretation of the spirit and intent of the rules. It's too bad that there is nothing, other than spirit and intent, in the rule book to back me up.

[bigwhistle]

Call a common foul and keep the game moving. If Team B is trying to foul and didn't hear a whistle on the first slap, he was trying again to get the clock stopped by the subsequent hold. This is why officials need to be aware of the game and the situations at hand.

If you let the "ticky-tack" foul go here (which is apparently what the defensive player thought had happened), he will make contact again with a force that makes it harder to ignore. CALL THE FIRST FOUL!!!! Both coaches want it and understand it. This is good game management.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bigwhistle

Call a common foul and keep the game moving. If Team B is trying to foul and didn't hear a whistle on the first slap, he was trying again to get the clock stopped by the subsequent hold. This is why officials need to be aware of the game and the situations at hand. If you let the "ticky-tack" foul go here (which is apparently what the defensive player thought had happened), he will make contact again with a force that makes it harder to ignore. CALL THE FIRST FOUL!!!! Both coaches want it and understand it. This is good game management.

I don't strongly disagree with you but, how about the NFHS rule that we don't ignore fouls during a dead ball if they're flagrant, or intentional, which the jersey grab was, by many Forum members', and NFHS, definitions.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't strongly disagree with you but, how about the NFHS rule that we don't ignore fouls during a dead ball if they're flagrant, or intentional, which the jersey grab was, by many Forum members', and NFHS, definitions.

Quite possibly, this jersey grab was not a foul.

4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional.

A1 fouls B1. The ball is dead. A1 grabs B1's jersey, then quickly releases it. No position was neutralized. The clock was not affected. The grab is not a foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I don't strongly disagree with you but, how about the NFHS rule that we don't ignore fouls during a dead ball if they're flagrant, or intentional, which the jersey grab was, by many Forum members', and NFHS, definitions.

No, it wasn't an intentional foul. It *would have been* an intentional foul if the ball was still live for "neutralizing an obvious advantageous position." Since the ball was dead, there was no "advantageous position" to neutralize.