gps-8 what would you do?

[crew]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
This apples to oranges. What if they came to you and said, "That wasn't a charge, it was a block."? What are you going to do? There is a difference.[/B]

your getting into totally different scenarios which do not apply to the original post. the original play was a play that information can be given to correct the situation. an official cant come in and say "i thought the defense slid in on that one" after the calling official has already called a charge.

stick with the original post and try not to add "what ifs" and other scenarios.

[physicsref]

I'll probably just ask my P "Did you see the ball knocked loose by the Defense?" Thus giving him the opportunity to change his mind. I don't like the "I have definite knowledge that the ball was knocked loose..." approach. You don't give the guy who made the call a chance to defend his call, you basically insist he call it your way. By coming with a question, you let him know that:

a) You saw something different/additional.
b) You don't agree with his call.
c) You will respect his call.
d) He may reverse it.
e) It's his call to change or not.

Most likely, he will infer from your question the above mentioned points as well as:

a) Hey, I blew that call.
b) I have an "out" now.
c) My P is not trying to show me up.

That said, I generally will not question a travel call, but this sitch is a little different. Namely, when the violation gets called by my partner, its usually in his area or in a grey area of shared coverage or I realize that his view was a good one.

Maybe you pregamed something like "If I'm L and there's a drive in the lane, I'll be watching up high for contact, the travel can come from the outside official..." etc. etc.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by crew

your getting into totally different scenarios which do not apply to the original post. the original play was a play that information can be given to correct the situation..[/B]

I'm sorry, but since when did you become the person who tells posters what they can and cannot post?

FYI, I didn't change the situation. Your buddy Barnaky was the one that changed us from apples to oranges. He brought in the charge situation where a fellow official comes in and says the the shot was released prior to the contact. I simply ask him what would happen if the other official came in a said it was a block. There's no difference. It's the same prinicple. If you don't want to deal with my post, then don't read it!

an official cant come in and say "i thought the defense slid in on that one" after the calling official has already called a charge.

Thank you! My point exactly. Thank you for answering the question that your buddy refused to answer. If another official can't come in and say "that was a block," he has no business coming and and saying, "That wasn't a travel."

[BBarnaky]

I have not refused to answer the question. I just have been a little bit busy lately and haven't spent night and day on this website. Finishing my regular season assignments and looking forward to post season play. Also, trying to work at my job some and spend time with my family as well. These things are important.

Anyways, I would not come in and change my partners block charge play. However, I would come in and give information on this travel GPS situation and would also give information as to whether a shot has been released on a block/charge play in a college game.

Also, please don't assume I am anyone's "buddy."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Helping your partner when it involves out-of-bounds plays, two or three-point field goal attempts, getting the correct shooter, or getting the correct players involved in a fight is one thing.

But, attempting to change judgement calls is another thing, even when you know that your partner is 200% wrong. There is not an official who has made a contribution to this discussion group who has not worked a game in a two-man crew who had a partner who did nothing but watch the ball. You know the type. You are the Trail, the ball is five feet above the top of the key and the poing guard stops his dribble and comes to a stop and it looks strange but the guard did nothing illegal, and tweeeeeeeeet!!!!!! goes your partner's whistle and he gives the travel signal. You cannot wait for half time to come so that you can rearrange his brain.

I think I made my point clear in my first post in this thread. The game evaluator will no doubt make a note of the play, and as a team you will discuss it either at half time or after the game. We all blow a play at least once a season, that's life, we all struggle to have the perfect game and we all know how difficult that is to accomplish. We have all had the moments when we wished that we could have sucked the air back into the whistle but the game goes on and over the course of a game we make hundreds of yes/no decisions. As a structural engineer, I can tell you that officiating basketball is not rocket science (neither is officiating soccer for that matter). Maybe it is because I have been involved in basketball as a player, coach, and official since I was nine (I am now 50), I think that basketball is one of the easiest sports (after soccer) to officiate.

The play happened, and life goes on, besides it was John Cloughty (go YSU Penquins) who made the call, I think that we can all give him a little slack, after all he has earned it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BBarnaky
Anyways, I would not come in and change my partners block charge play. However, I would come in and give information on this travel GPS situation and would also give information as to whether a shot has been released on a block/charge play in a college game.
[/B]

What is the actual difference,in your opinion,between being willing to help your partner out in a violation or shot-release situation--and not being willing to help him out in a foul situation?In all the cases,you feel that you saw something that your partner didn't.In all the cases,you want to get the call right,if you can.In all the cases,you are going to let your partner make the final determination after you give him the info.
Note:This one is a serious question.I'm not being a smart-***,and I am interested in your logic.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Maybe it is because I have been involved in basketball as a player, coach, and official since I was nine (I am now 50), I think that basketball is one of the easiest sports (after soccer) to officiate.

Mark,can you send me some of whatever you are using?The damn game drives me nuts some days,and it seems to get harder every year I do it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I think that basketball is one of the easiest sports (after soccer) to officiate.

Ever officiate lacrosse? Much more demanding physically, but one of the easiest sports for exercising judgment.

By the way, if you think the basketball rules are unclear in certain places, try reading the lacrosse book. It's horrible.

Chuck

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark,can you send me some of whatever you are using?The damn game drives me nuts some days,and it seems to get harder every year I do it.

It's blacklungs.com or some such thing

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by BBarnaky
Also, please don't assume I am anyone's "buddy."

I'm sorry if I insulted you.

Help me understand why you think it would be okay to come in and ask your partner if he saw B1 touch the ball on the travel call but it wouldn't be okay to come in if you thought B1 blocked or B2 had a hand in A1's back on a charge.

Personally, I'm having trouble seeing the difference.

[crew]

bktballref--in the prescribed situation the travel call is judgement, the tip from the defensiveman negates the violation. the calling official more than likely did not see the tip and therefor judged it a violation. also we as officials are not coming to the calling official changing the call. we would be giving additional information to the calling official and allowing him to change the call. if we were to do this when ever we thought our partners made a judgement mistake our credibility would be shot. coming to our partner in the first scenario, it would be a game saver and good for the game. coming in to question judgement in your scenario would not be good for the game. (as mentioned earlier "use big picture officiating")

physicsref--i see what you are saying, coming with a question instead of a statement. the reason i would come to my partner as described is because it seems to portray more confidence. if someone were to come to me with a question-my perception would be to doubt you and even think that you doubt yourself. but you may be presenting a better way to approach someone. i guess it depends on personalities. this is a good thought!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by crew
bktballref--in the prescribed situation the travel call is ......

I'm sorry but my comments were for BBarnaky. I'm not really interested in your explanation. Thanks anyway.

[eroe39]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Eli,if you get a chance,please check out the thread from 2/7 called GPS-7--The Big Picture.Would you call crew's handling of that situation "big picture officiating",also?I'm just wondering what "big picture" encompasses.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 24th, 2002 at 05:28 AM]

Jurassic Ref, big picture refereeing to me means to not complicate simple situations, to go with the obvious, and when you have a choice of two scenarios you go with the one that everyone will buy instead of creating controversy. Of course, there are situations when you have to go with something complicated or odd or what people won't understand but this should be done rarely. For example, if a defender brushes a player on the arm in the shooting motion and then the offensive player crashes over a defender and levels him to the ground then go with the offensive foul, the obvious play to the players, coaches, and fans instead of trying to sell some first foul. Nobody will complain about the offensive foul. You will have lots of complaints about calling the hit to the arm. I have never done what crew did in G.P.S. 7. However, I was in the game with crew and I am so glad he did it because we would of lost a lot of respect with that crazy call. Nobody said a word about what he did. The foul he had was not there and there was a borderline "on the back" foul that was believable to sell, so that is what he went with. This is not something I would tell people to go out and do, however this was a weird situation.

[eroe39]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Eli, what if your parnter just flat misses the call. He had the wrong pivot foot, for example. Are you still going to him and tell him the player didn't travel? According to the posts here, there wouldn't be any difference.

This apples to oranges. What if they came to you and said, "That wasn't a charge, it was a block."? What are you going to do? There is a difference.

Basketball Ref, as I stated earlier, coming to your partners cannot be done on every judgement situation. In my opinion this is a nice clean situation where it can be done. I have done it and seen it done in games before and the players and coaches buy it, just like they buy a change of an out of bounds call. If you come to your partner about a missed foul or that you believe a player's pivot foot did not move coaches and players will not buy this and this could be done on several calls throughout the game. However, this situation, where an official calls a travel and the other official is 100% sure that the ball was deflected by the defense is something that happens rarely. Well, let me say it happens rarely in the pro game and DI. However, it might happen more in high school or rec ball and maybe you don't feel this should be done in those situations and your probably right. Please don't take those last couple sentences to be degrading to high school basketball or rec ball. On block/charge situations we are taught to come to our partner if it involves him or her missing it due to the restricted area because this can be done nice and clean. However, if the restricted area is not involved I cannot come to my partner because people will not buy this change and it cannot be done nice and clean.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by eroe39

Jurassic Ref, big picture refereeing to me means to not complicate simple situations, to go with the obvious, and when you have a choice of two scenarios you go with the one that everyone will buy instead of creating controversy. Of course, there are situations when you have to go with something complicated or odd or what people won't understand but this should be done rarely. For example, if a defender brushes a player on the arm in the shooting motion and then the offensive player crashes over a defender and levels him to the ground then go with the offensive foul, the obvious play to the players, coaches, and fans instead of trying to sell some first foul. Nobody will complain about the offensive foul. You will have lots of complaints about calling the hit to the arm. I have never done what crew did in G.P.S. 7. However, I was in the game with crew and I am so glad he did it because we would of lost a lot of respect with that crazy call. Nobody said a word about what he did. The foul he had was not there and there was a borderline "on the back" foul that was believable to sell, so that is what he went with. This is not something I would tell people to go out and do, however this was a weird situation.

Eli,excellent post!Your explanation was pretty well what I was taught many years ago.The idea of "big picture" officiating has been around longer than I've been around.Several different names have been used for it over the years,and a lotta guys do teach it and practise it(including many high school officials).The idea certainly isn't new.You partially made the point that I was trying to make in crew's sitch.Do it to keep you and your partners' butts out of trouble if you have to,but don't recommend it to be used all the time.In other words,don't look for a chance to use it.The procedure should be saved for the times when it is appropriate.If you try to use it too often,then you're using it as a cop-out--and you could be a factor in the game when you shouldn't be.It's OK in "iffy" or fairly obvious situations,but if you use it to walk away from the tough call that also happens to be the RIGHT call,then you're not doing your job.That was the point I wanted to make.