Massachusetts and Post-Game Handshake/Round 2

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have officiated with IAABO officials from Mass. and I don't think anybody will be crossing the "picket line" so to speak.

I don't think that is accurate. This is a complicated situation and way too political. Individual IAABO boards did not make this decision. It was done by a "state board" to which all IAABO boards have representation and which has the sole authority to negotiate with the MIAA over fees, enrollment and related state-wide matters.

The state board met in emergency session last night and adopted the following: The MSBOA voted unanimously at its November 25, 2007 meeting that its members will not remain to observe the post game handshake. This position has not changed. With regard to the state tournament, individual members may choose to enroll with the MIAA.

I know a lot of officials from my board are not happy with the situation...in part because they had no say in it. I expect many officials will enroll as individual members...with the full blessing of their IAABO boards. Last year there were 1,412 basketball officials enrolled with the MIAA. Of those, 91% enrolled through their IAABO boards; the rest through six smaller independent associations that the MIAA recognizes.

Several members of the Executive Committee of my board have expressed frustration about the situation. They thought the issue was resolved and were quite surprised to learn it had not been.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I know a lot of officials from my board are not happy with the situation...in part because they had no say in it. I expect many officials will enroll as individual members...with the full blessing of their IAABO boards.

I had heard that the some IAABO boards had already directed their members NOT to wait around for post-game handshakes either. Is that correct?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I had heard that the some IAABO boards had already directed their members NOT to wait around for post-game handshakes either. Is that correct?

Yes. All had...in some fashion. My board recommended we not stay, but said the decision was up to each of us.

But officials do not work for the board. The boards only provide training, rules interpretation and regular meetings. They do not assign games. We are independent contractors, who work for the schools and are paid by the schools. Our assignments come from commissioners who are hired by the leagues. Some assignors told their officials they had to stay for the handshake. If they did not want to, they would have their games removed. My assignors told me I could do whatever I wanted. I had one athletic director personally ask me and my partner to stay. Most said nothing. For most games, I stayed; for a few, I left as soon as the final horn sounded. I heard no complaints or compliments (except for the one AD who thanked me for staying.)

The biggest problem, to me, was that IAABO boards did not make the decision. Rather, the Mass. State Basketball Officials Assn., did. That board has no members. Instead, it has representatives from all 13 IAABO boards, in some proportion to the number of officials on each board. That board, according to its bylaws, is the sole representative of all IAABO boards with the MIAA on state-side issues, including fees and game enrollment. The individual boards were told if they did not follow the state board, they risked sanction from IAABO, including possible revocation of their IAABO charters. I know of officials that are talking about joining one of the non-IAABO boards or even trying to have their board withdraw from IAABO and request independent status from the MIAA.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Yes. All had...in some fashion. My board recommended we not stay, but said the decision was up to each of us.

But officials do not work for the board. The boards only provide training, rules interpretation and regular meetings. They do not assign games. We are independent contractors, who work for the schools and are paid by the schools. Our assignments come from commissioners who are hired by the leagues. Some assignors told their officials they had to stay for the handshake. If they did not want to, they would have their games removed. My assignors told me I could do whatever I wanted. I had one athletic director personally ask me and my partner to stay. Most said nothing. For most games, I stayed; for a few, I left as soon as the final horn sounded. I heard no complaints or compliments (except for the one AD who thanked me for staying.)

The biggest problem, to me, was that IAABO boards did not make the decision. Rather, the Mass. State Basketball Officials Assn., did. That board has no members. Instead, it has representatives from all 13 IAABO boards, in some proportion to the number of officials on each board. That board, according to its bylaws, is the sole representative of all IAABO boards with the MIAA on state-side issues, including fees and game enrollment. The individual boards were told if they did not follow the state board, they risked sanction from IAABO, including possible revocation of their IAABO charters. I know of officials that are talking about joining one of the non-IAABO boards or even trying to have their board withdraw from IAABO and request independent status from the MIAA.

While IAABO is not a union (it is a professional organization) it appears that the State IAABO Board was protecting all of its members when it told the MIAA that its members would not supervise the post-game handshake. If Local IAABO boards decide to leave IAABO, that is the worst thing that could happen and what the MIAA wants. There is strength in numbers and that is the only way that the officials can protect themselves by stupid rules by brainless twits that have no clue about officiating.

MTD, Sr.

[billyc8037]

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

You didn't mention me specifically, but I'll give it a shot.

There are adults there (coaches, parents) more responsible for those kids once the game ends than us. Why should we need to stick around to monitor something they should be monitoring themselves?

[johnnyrao]

I do not understand the reasoning behind all of this. I have been a long time soccer coach and, to be honest, when the game is over I could care less what the officials do. I would love to know what the Mass HS coaches think about all of this? In most cases, coaches only seem to want me around after a game when they feel they got a raw deal from the crew. If they have no issues with us, it never seems like they care at all.

What's next, "silent basketball games"? This is another wonderful idea from the soccer world where on certain days, the games were designated as "silent". No one (I mean NO ONE) was allowed to speak at the game except players and the officials. Coaches could not coach, spectators could not cheer or speak. There were even game management officials walking the field who would remove anyone for saying anything at all, positive or negative.

This one baffles me. My guess is the reason that soccer officials started remaining on the field after a game is because the safest place to be from the fans is standing in the center circle. Also, at least at the international level, the teams and officials usually use the same tunnel to get on/off the field so the officials wait until the teams have left and emotions are died down before leaving. Most things we do at lower levels we learn from the higher levels, so I would assume we started doing this in HS soccer because "that's what the big boys do". As stated earlier, the safest place for the basketball official is off the floor. I wonder if anyone did any analysis on why soccer and hockey do it or if it was just a grand generalization that brought this on?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There are adults there (coaches, parents) more responsible for those kids once the game ends than us. Why should we need to stick around to monitor something they should be monitoring themselves?

Change "more" to "who are" and I agree with you 117%. We are never responsible for their behavior; we just monitor it.

Know what? If they all think that this is such a great idea....that it's fostering sportsmanship and athletic bonhomie, etc.....then why don't they have the freaking handshake ceremony BEFORE the damn game? You know...maybe instill the idea that you're supposed to PLAY the game in some kind of sporting fashion instead of just paying meaningless lip service to the concept post-game.

I know, I know.....pie-in-the-sky thinking.....Bad JR... bad,bad JR

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game.

Jmo but I think that the MIAA should be told that if officials do stay, there would be ZERO tolerance towards ANY post-game unsporting conduct. Tell 'em that you want rules installed saying that anyone who even looks at an official sideways, let alone says anything to one of us, will be immediately ejected post-game, written up and suspended for at least 2 games for the first offense, with no appeal allowed. Iow, say "hey, if you're serious about post-game sporstmanship, put your money where your mouth is". That concept should go hand-in-hand with what they're trying to do anyway, shouldn't it?

Any bets on whether the MIAA members would go for anything like that?

[biz]

I would love to know what the Mass HS coaches think about all of this?

I can only give you my thoughts. I can't speak for all MA coaches. As a coach I don't care if the officials stay or go, it does not matter to me. That said we had an incident 2 yrs ago where the officials were alerted to a possible timing error at the end of a game and had to stay to sort it out. They were approached by two fans who were (imo) out of control. Fortunately, I was able to get between the fans and the officials before game management got there. This only illustrates one of the possible issues here, and in this case the officials needed to be on the court. Why should they stay when they don't need to be there?

As a HS coach (hoop, soccer, and tennis) I hate the post-game line-up handshake thing. It's rote behavior. The only reason we do it is because we have been doing it since the kids were 6. High School students understand the difference between good and bad sportsmanship and they should not be forced to shake an opponents hand. I am much more impressed with what I see more and more of, and that's athletes who will seek out their fellow competitors after the ceremonial handshake to congratulate them and have an adult conversation, wishing each other good luck, and a slap on the back not a forced "good game."

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

In my observation, officials staying on the floor for any reason after the game is like painting a big target on their back, and one on their front, a target that is all bull's eye. It's just asking for more trouble, and doesn't help anything. We are told to "get the heck out of dodge" for a reason. For the MIAA to expect their officials to go against all the years and games of experience that have accumulated in the NFHS seems beyond arrogant.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

We are told to "get the heck out of dodge" for a reason.

And that's never more relevant than when you actually work games in Dodge.

I work baseball and now basketball, and have never known anything but the "get the heck out" rule as soon as the game is over. Weird that MA decides to do something stupid like this.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

So aren't you really saying that the vast majority of games don't need us there to monitor the post-game ceremonials, and on the rare occassion when our presense would be required are those same situations when the officials should take the option to not be there. If that's the case, what's the point?

[Texas Aggie]

In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids

I agree with you: in MOST cases, this is true. However, I've had a small part in a situation where it wasn't true. Years ago, guys from my chapter worked a game between two rivals where a massive fight broke out -- to be sure, started mostly by fans, but teams actively participated -- after the game. Both officials were still on the floor and one was able to get out of the building while the other wasn't -- at least for a few minutes. After the fight, the visitors tore up their locker room and did quite a bit of damage. This thing ended up in Austin with hearings that went on for 2 days, if I recall correctly. My only part in it was that I worked the game later in the season between the two teams at a neutral site. By then, we had gone through our post-game ritual at chapter meetings discussing about getting off the court after the game.

Nothing can be helped by us being on the floor. The only thing that could happen is our potential exposure to litigation could increase. Not so much liability, but it still costs money to answer a lawsuit and your insurance isn't going to cover all of it.

I support the officials not participating in this stupidity that the state has mandated. The state wants to cover their butt here -- there's no other good reason for this. I'm not necessarily a fan of solidarity; I'm a fan of doing what's right, and I hope individual officials won't capitulate. I sure wouldn't. I value playoff assignments, but not to the point where I'm going to do something I think is clearly wrong just to get one.

[sixer]

and I hope individual officials won't capitulate.

I think you're assuming that individual officials agree with the State Board, and many, many do not. I'm one that doesn't. I'm also a fan of doing what's right.

When I was a senior in high school playing baseball, the umpires went on "strike", even though they weren't a union. I don't know what it was over and quite frankly didn't care. All I remember is being pissed off that I had to have some schmoe in street clothes stand behind the mound and call the game. And if he didn't, we'd be having do-overs because we'd be calling the game ourselves.

I don't care what their beef was and I don't care what the MSBOA beef is. The game's about the freakin' kids. To ask/tell/encourage/call-it-what-you-want officials not to officiate the state tourney that these kids work so hard for is undefendable to me. I'd rather work at 7-11 for a 2nd job than put some kid through the feelings I had back in HS.