Massachusetts and Post-Game Handshake/Round 2

[billyc8037]

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

You didn't mention me specifically, but I'll give it a shot.

There are adults there (coaches, parents) more responsible for those kids once the game ends than us. Why should we need to stick around to monitor something they should be monitoring themselves?

[johnnyrao]

I do not understand the reasoning behind all of this. I have been a long time soccer coach and, to be honest, when the game is over I could care less what the officials do. I would love to know what the Mass HS coaches think about all of this? In most cases, coaches only seem to want me around after a game when they feel they got a raw deal from the crew. If they have no issues with us, it never seems like they care at all.

What's next, "silent basketball games"? This is another wonderful idea from the soccer world where on certain days, the games were designated as "silent". No one (I mean NO ONE) was allowed to speak at the game except players and the officials. Coaches could not coach, spectators could not cheer or speak. There were even game management officials walking the field who would remove anyone for saying anything at all, positive or negative.

This one baffles me. My guess is the reason that soccer officials started remaining on the field after a game is because the safest place to be from the fans is standing in the center circle. Also, at least at the international level, the teams and officials usually use the same tunnel to get on/off the field so the officials wait until the teams have left and emotions are died down before leaving. Most things we do at lower levels we learn from the higher levels, so I would assume we started doing this in HS soccer because "that's what the big boys do". As stated earlier, the safest place for the basketball official is off the floor. I wonder if anyone did any analysis on why soccer and hockey do it or if it was just a grand generalization that brought this on?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

There are adults there (coaches, parents) more responsible for those kids once the game ends than us. Why should we need to stick around to monitor something they should be monitoring themselves?

Change "more" to "who are" and I agree with you 117%. We are never responsible for their behavior; we just monitor it.

Know what? If they all think that this is such a great idea....that it's fostering sportsmanship and athletic bonhomie, etc.....then why don't they have the freaking handshake ceremony BEFORE the damn game? You know...maybe instill the idea that you're supposed to PLAY the game in some kind of sporting fashion instead of just paying meaningless lip service to the concept post-game.

I know, I know.....pie-in-the-sky thinking.....Bad JR... bad,bad JR

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game.

Jmo but I think that the MIAA should be told that if officials do stay, there would be ZERO tolerance towards ANY post-game unsporting conduct. Tell 'em that you want rules installed saying that anyone who even looks at an official sideways, let alone says anything to one of us, will be immediately ejected post-game, written up and suspended for at least 2 games for the first offense, with no appeal allowed. Iow, say "hey, if you're serious about post-game sporstmanship, put your money where your mouth is". That concept should go hand-in-hand with what they're trying to do anyway, shouldn't it?

Any bets on whether the MIAA members would go for anything like that?

[biz]

I would love to know what the Mass HS coaches think about all of this?

I can only give you my thoughts. I can't speak for all MA coaches. As a coach I don't care if the officials stay or go, it does not matter to me. That said we had an incident 2 yrs ago where the officials were alerted to a possible timing error at the end of a game and had to stay to sort it out. They were approached by two fans who were (imo) out of control. Fortunately, I was able to get between the fans and the officials before game management got there. This only illustrates one of the possible issues here, and in this case the officials needed to be on the court. Why should they stay when they don't need to be there?

As a HS coach (hoop, soccer, and tennis) I hate the post-game line-up handshake thing. It's rote behavior. The only reason we do it is because we have been doing it since the kids were 6. High School students understand the difference between good and bad sportsmanship and they should not be forced to shake an opponents hand. I am much more impressed with what I see more and more of, and that's athletes who will seek out their fellow competitors after the ceremonial handshake to congratulate them and have an adult conversation, wishing each other good luck, and a slap on the back not a forced "good game."

[biz]

As an official.....

I've posted this in the previous thread on the topic. If I were forced to stay I would not choose to end my jurisdiction over the game. Anything that was even remotely unsporting would be penalized with an flagrant Technical. The ejection carries with it an automatic 1 game suspension from the MIAA (2 games if for fighting). If the free throws would effect the outcome we would clear the floor and shoot them.

If I'm going to stay I'm using the tools at my disposal and I'm not just going to report unsporting behavior and hope that the schools and the MIAA act appropriately.

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by biz

As a coach I don't care if the officials stay or go, it does not matter to me.

I asked a friend of mine today who has coached at HS, D1, and now D3. He said pretty much the same thing. He said he doesn't care to talk to the officials after the game, whatever he thinks about their performance. Too much to do with the team. My sense is most coaches would say the same thing, that there is no reason for the officials to stay.

[David M]

BayStateRef what board are you on? I am on 27. It has cost me nine games (one assignor) by refusing to stay for the handshake. It has made for a lighter schedule this year but I am not going against the boards wishes.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

In my observation, officials staying on the floor for any reason after the game is like painting a big target on their back, and one on their front, a target that is all bull's eye. It's just asking for more trouble, and doesn't help anything. We are told to "get the heck out of dodge" for a reason. For the MIAA to expect their officials to go against all the years and games of experience that have accumulated in the NFHS seems beyond arrogant.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

We are told to "get the heck out of dodge" for a reason.

And that's never more relevant than when you actually work games in Dodge.

I work baseball and now basketball, and have never known anything but the "get the heck out" rule as soon as the game is over. Weird that MA decides to do something stupid like this.

[ChuckElias]

There's so much that I would like to say about this situation, but discretion is the better part of valor in this case, I think. I will just say this much as background. This rule was approved by one committee within the MIAA. The committee is composed of a total of 12-14 people. (I can't remember the exact number.) The state's basketball Coaches' Association voted in opposition to the rule. The state's Basketball Officials' Association voted unanimously in opposition to the rule. The MIAA's Board of Directors voted in opposition to the rule. The MIAA's Executive Director has publicly stated that he is not in favor of the rule.

In other words, these 12-14 people have decided that they are smarter than all the coaches of Massachusetts, all the officials of Massachusetts, their own Board of Directors and their organization's chief executive. Not to mention almost 120 years of basketball tradition.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm IAABO from Connecticut, and I wouldn't cross this "picket line". No good can come from hanging around the gym after a game.

You may just get a call Billy. We've been told that they will use any officials they can get -- whether they're from Massachusetts or Connecticut, whether they're IAABO or prison league officials. The tournament will be played (and that's absolutely the way it should be) regardless of who is willing to officiate it. Good luck to them, b/c I will almost definitely not be working this year.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

There's so much that I would like to say about this situation, but discretion is the better part of valor in this case, I think. I will just say this much as background. This rule was approved by one committee within the MIAA. The committee is composed of a total of 12-14 people. (I can't remember the exact number.) The state's basketball Coaches' Association voted in opposition to the rule. The state's Basketball Officials' Association voted unanimously in opposition to the rule. The MIAA's Board of Directors voted in opposition to the rule. The MIAA's Executive Director has publicly stated that he is not in favor of the rule.

In other words, these 12-14 people have decided that they are smarter than all the coaches of Massachusetts, all the officials of Massachusetts, their own Board of Directors and their organization's chief executive. Not to mention almost 120 years of basketball tradition.


You may just get a call Billy. We've been told that they will use any officials they can get -- whether they're from Massachusetts or Connecticut, whether they're IAABO or prison league officials. The tournament will be played (and that's absolutely the way it should be) regardless of who is willing to officiate it. Good luck to them, b/c I will almost definitely not be working this year.

Chuck:

This post is for humor only (because I was the one who use the term "picket line" in a previous post), does this mean since I belong to IAABO Board #55 (Cleveland, Ohio), that I could be getting a phone call from the MIAA to officiate in their post-season tournament?

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by billyc8037

OK comrades, I have given this issue some long and hard thought relative to the "pros and cons". Quite frankly, unless you find yourself in a game that has proven to be with an inordinate amount of controversy or high level of competitive rivalry, I can see no real issue in participating with a gesture of good sportsmanship. In most games that I have ref'd, coached, assisted or worked at, generally speaking, as soon as the buzzer sounds, the game is over and the student athletes have already "turned-off" the competitiveness and returned to being kids again congratulating their opponents for a good game. Again, I stress the point that the MIAA has already factored in that occasionally a game situation may entirely require a swift departure from the officials in order to alleviate any further disdain that may have been present during the game. Of course I am NOT steadfast in my opinion and welcome remarks or comments from Mark or others that would solicit a different opinion. Rut, Jurassic?

So aren't you really saying that the vast majority of games don't need us there to monitor the post-game ceremonials, and on the rare occassion when our presense would be required are those same situations when the officials should take the option to not be there. If that's the case, what's the point?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I know, I know.....pie-in-the-sky thinking.....Bad JR... bad,bad JR

It's that kind of thinking that is leading you straight to hell, buddy!!

As far as my opinion on this whole mess - it's a joke. If the coaches, AD's and parents can't make sure everyone shakes hands nicely, how are we supposed to help? I guess our polyester slacks and striped shirts will intimidate all those players into having good sportsmanship, right?