Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

And you'd do all that without asking the head coach whether they really are affiliated with his team?

Glad I won't have to answer the complaint when it comes in. I wouldn't have a clue how to justify your logic either under the rules.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you'd do all that without asking the head coach whether they really are affiliated with his team?

Glad I won't have to answer the complaint when it comes in. I wouldn't have a clue how to justify your logic either under the rules.

I wouldn't have to answer the complaint. I have no doubt my assignor and the state association would back this interpretation up.

Seriously...from my perspective players from the same school - regardless of whether they are playing in that particular game - are going to be viewed as bench personnel when they are in the middle of organized warmups prior to the game. I have no doubt that will be supported in my association.

[Junker]

I'd ignore them unless they dunk. If they do, they are in uniform (I assume) so I drop the T on the dunk. Why go looking for problems even before the tip? Address the problem when it occurs.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

All you have to add to Ignats' logic to make it clear is individuals participating in warm-ups "with the coach's permission." Obviously if someone comes out of the stands, grabs a ball, and dunks, you aren't going to issue a T.

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

What if the Vplayers took it upon themselves to just shoot round with the JV team? The JVHC didn't realize they were there or maybe the JVHC isn't on the floor.

Better yet one of the Varsity players who is dressed in their warm ups comes out of the stands behind the JV's bench picks up the ball and throws it down?

4-34 Art.2 "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).....

I agree with JR that we really don't know who is going to be bench personnel unless the coach informs us or if they are in fact sitting on the BENCH.

Case Book 4.34.2 gives a play where a trainer who is @ the end of the bench gets penalized as bench personnel.

This is a perfect example of someone who is AFFILIATED with a team but isn't specifically listed in the rule.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If the Varsity player is in uniform but not eligible to become a player then he can't be considered a team member. If this player doesn't sit on the bench and the coach confirms that he's neither a player or bench personnel then he is just a spectator of the JV game.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Junker

I'd ignore them unless they dunk. If they do, they are in uniform (I assume) so I drop the T on the dunk. Why go looking for problems even before the tip? Address the problem when it occurs.

Umm...Game Management!!!(Trying to prevent this particular problem) This hypothetical situation is why you don't want anybody but the team that is playing the game warming up.

In the OP the R was given the information from the HC. He then did the right thing, IMO, by having the varsity squad vacate the floor.

If you don't know or can't tell then that is one thing but if you know then, IMO, we should take care of it.

[truerookie]

I don't know if there was an interpertation put out a year or two ago. Where in between halves Varsity players where allowed on the court to warming up. Or, is it just the state I'm in where game management was informed not to allow anyone to warm up if they were not apart of the team ACTUALLY playing the game currently.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Umm...Game Management!!!(Trying to prevent this particular problem) This hypothetical situation is why you don't want anybody but the team that is playing the game warming up.

In the OP the R was given the information from the HC. He then did the right thing, IMO, by having the varsity squad vacate the floor.

If you don't know or can't tell then that is one thing but if you know then, IMO, we should take care of it.

That's exactly why you ignore it. Game managment. You are causing an needless confrontation on a play that doesn't occur often (I think I've had 1 T for dunking in 8 years and that was in a summer game). Like I said, don't go looking for problems, take care of it when it occurs.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Junker

That's exactly why you ignore it. Game managment. You are causing an needless confrontation on a play that doesn't occur often (I think I've had 1 T for dunking in 8 years and that was in a summer game). Like I said, don't go looking for problems, take care of it when it occurs.

Junker I agree with you that this may never happen or @ least rarely. Nobody is looking for problems! Theres no confrontation @ all. Your just telling the HC that only team members of the team going to play are allowed to warm up. The V players will have their warm up time before their game.

If you don't handle it and you have this situation happen by a non team member then it leads to what this discussion is about. Some agree you can give a "T" and call the varsity player a team member & some don't. The "T" side of the argument isn't clearly rule supported. Why not then just prevent non team members from warming up so that this will not be a problem.

[Junker]

He questions the junior varsity coach about this, who replies that the varsity players are also warming up with the junior varsity team, as they "always" do. The referee requests that the varsity players leave the court, after which the varsity coach interjects by saying that the varsity players "always" do this, but he pulls his varsity players off the court.

I don't know, sounds a bit confrontational to me. Why have this be the first conversation of the night with the coach? If it is always happening, you begin the game by looking like an OOO and you aren't on great terms to begin with. I'd ignore it and talk to my association. If it is ignored every time, I'll be ignoring it as well.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

What if the Vplayers took it upon themselves to just shoot round with the JV team? The JVHC didn't realize they were there or maybe the JVHC isn't on the floor.

Better yet one of the Varsity players who is dressed in their warm ups comes out of the stands behind the JV's bench picks up the ball and throws it down?

4-34 Art.2 "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).....

I agree with JR that we really don't know who is going to be bench personnel unless the coach informs us or if they are in fact sitting on the BENCH.

Case Book 4.34.2 gives a play where a trainer who is @ the end of the bench gets penalized as bench personnel.

This is a perfect example of someone who is AFFILIATED with a team but isn't specifically listed in the rule.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If the Varsity player is in uniform but not eligible to become a player then he can't be considered a team member. If this player doesn't sit on the bench and the coach confirms that he's neither a player or bench personnel then he is just a spectator of the JV game.

1st: the JV coach cannot absent himself nor play dumb to release himself from his responsibilities per Rule 10.

2nd: Are trainers the only other individuals we could list as bench personnel? NO. The list doesn't stop there.

3rd:All Varsity players are eligible and could become JV players at any time during the night. If the coaches want they can buy the Var player's way into the game with a technical foul for adding a name to the book even if it is with 2 seconds to go in the JV game.

So stop saying they are not eligible just because his name is not in the book nor is he seated on the bench.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

1st: the JV coach cannot absent himself nor play dumb to release himself from his responsibilities per Rule 10.

I agree! Obviously! However if a Varsity player takes it upon himself to leave the bleacher and dunks the ball the JVHC had no way to avoid it. Further more what if the Varsity player leaves the floor after the dunk with his VARSITY team and isn't within the visual confines of the floor?

Originally Posted by Preacher

2nd: Are trainers the only other individuals we could list as bench personnel? NO. The list doesn't stop there.

I didn't say that it stopped there. The point I was making was that the trainer was on the BENCH and would be a example of affiliated personnel that is on the BENCH.

Originally Posted by Preacher

3rd:All Varsity players are eligible and could become JV players at any time during the night. If the coaches want they can buy the Var player's way into the game with a technical foul for adding a name to the book even if it is with 2 seconds to go in the JV game.

Sure they could, but what if the player isn't eligible due to suspension or academics, etc. There are a number of situations that would make the player not eligible to play. Might have transfered and the States governing body hasn't approved the player to play yet. He still could be in uniform but not eligible to play. If he's on the bench the he's bench personnel.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Originally Posted by Preacher

So stop saying they are not eligible just because his name is not in the book nor is he seated on the bench.

By your logic then any player from freshman, JV, to Varsity that is in uniform with warm ups on that is sitting in the stands to watch the game is bench personnel? So if they make an unsportsmanlike comment to you you can give a bench T on that player in the stands and pin it on to the coach.

I'm not trying to get in a pi**ing contest with you. Obviously from the way you wrote your last post and how much time you put into it that you have a great deal of knowledge in this game. However if its not rule supported then its not. With your own words you said that the way JR would handle it would be covered by the rules...

Originally Posted by Preacher

We differ only on the definition of bench personnel as I mentioned above. I believe the Varsity players warming up with JV to be bench personnel and JR says no. If JR is right then he has posted the correct solution of how to handle the matter. Get game management to remove everyone not associated with the team. Now the responsibility for safety of the team is in the hands the proper authorities as deemed by rule (See Officials Manual, pg 6, 1.0.7) And just so we are very clear, just because I disagree with JR on who to include in the open definition of bench personnel I in no way will impugn his logic in reaching his conclusion. Based on his definition he is consistent within the rules of how to solve the situation.

Your alternative to handle this situation isn't clearly covered by the rules. It demands a stretch of the rules to justify. Like I said before I think that we ought to be able to penalize the BRAIN FART by the Varsity player. I just can't find and no one has yet provided justifiable rule support for the penalty.

Again confirms why only TEAM MEMBERS should be warming up before their game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

So stop saying they are not eligible just because his name is not in the book nor is he seated on the bench.

They are not eligible because they are not part of or affiliated with the team.

Is that better?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

They are not eligible because they are not part of or affiliated with the team.

Is that better?

Have a citation for your interpretation of "affiliated"?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Junker

He questions the junior varsity coach about this, who replies that the varsity players are also warming up with the junior varsity team, as they "always" do. The referee requests that the varsity players leave the court, after which the varsity coach interjects by saying that the varsity players "always" do this, but he pulls his varsity players off the court.
I don't know, sounds a bit confrontational to me. Why have this be the first conversation of the night with the coach? If it is always happening, you begin the game by looking like an OOO and you aren't on great terms to begin with.

You're right. I wasn't there, but according to the junior varsity referee, it was confrontational.

I had a very minor problem with the same varsity head coach before my varsity game that night. Per a NFHS point of emphasis a few years back, we here in Connecticut do not allow either team to "pregame huddle" in the center circle after introductions. This ritual must take place in the semicircle in front of each team's bench. After intoductions, befroe the national anthem, I relalize that the home team is in the center circle. I'm not going to make a big deal out of it before the anthem, so I pass on it, temporaraly. Before the jump ball to start the game, I take the coach caside and quietly explain to him, a first year coach, that his team is not allowed to do that in Connecticut. He says that he didn't know that. This was probably his eighth or ninth home game. What have my colleagues been doing for the past month and a half?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Before the jump ball to start the game, I take the coach aside and quietly explain to him, a first year coach, that his team is not allowed to do that in Connecticut. He says that he didn't know that. This was probably his eighth or ninth home game. What have my colleagues been doing for the past month and a half?

Your colleagues may have been telling him the exact same thing, Billy. Wouldn't be the first time that a coach tried to get away with something and then claimed that no one had ever called him on it before. Happens all the time ...as in "The officials last week let him wear it....".