Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So if you are observing the warm up and see two guys, dressed in uniforms just like everyone else, dunk the ball, you are going to go inquire as to who they are before calling a T? What if those guys do sit on the bench during the game? If one starts screaming about a call, would you let the coach tell you then that he was not affiliated with the team?

You hit the nail on the head. They are sitting on the bench so the are bench personnel which would also be defined as affiliated with the team.

As I have pointed out numerous times earlier in the thread if they aren't, "team members or bench personnel," then they aren't part of the team. They are just spectators.

If the player dunks, you notify the coach, the coach says he's on the Varsity team not my team, & the Varsity player is not on the bench and is either in the stands or not within the visual confines of the floor then how in the world are you going to assess a "T"?

To say that a player who is dressed like the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team just can't be right. If it were correct then any Freshman, or Varsity player sitting in the stands dressed could be called with a bench "T" then pinned to the coach for unsporting comments/actions.

We all know thats not possible! If thats not possible then how is it possible to assess a Bench "T" to the varsity player who dunked in the JV warm up?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

You hit the nail on the head. They are sitting on the bench so the are bench personnel which would also be defined as affiliated with the team.

Defined where? The definition of bench personnel does not include the phrase "sitting on the bench."

To say that a player who is dressed like the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team just can't be right.

But to say that a player who is dressed like the JV team and participating in the warmups with the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team, as far as I'm concerned, is a reasonable conclusion.

[Adam]

Question: What happens if the assistant coach dunks during warmups?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Defined where? The definition of bench personnel does not include the phrase "sitting on the bench."





But to say that a player who is dressed like the JV team and participating in the warmups with the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team, as far as I'm concerned, is a reasonable conclusion.

Just Another Ref:

It is more than just a reasonable conclusion it is the logical and correct conclusion.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Question: What happens if the assistant coach dunks during warmups?

Snaqs:

I would WHACK his tuchus for being a schmuck.

Seriously, I believe that this would fall under the conditions of an unsportsmanlike act. But of course you and I were just trying to be funny.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It is more than just a reasonable conclusion it is the logical and correct conclusion.

Even if that person, the head coach, the official scorer, the AD, the principal of the school, his parents and the mayor of the town told you that he wasn't affiliated with the team?

Dies that still make your assumption reasonable, logical and correct?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Even if that person, the head coach, the official scorer, the AD, the principal of the school, his parents and the mayor of the town told you that he wasn't affiliated with the team?

Dies that still make your assumption reasonable, logical and correct?

I never trust politicians.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I never trust politicians.

Word.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.

You posted all the correct rules, but you ignored the plain language and missed the critical part. There are three elements to a team member and a player must meet all three.
1. Bench personnel. This includes both players and non-players.
2. In uniform. (This one is easy.)
3. Eligible to become a player.

The third one is the key to this. Officials do not determine eligibility. A senior is not eligible to play on the JV team. A freshman that has played four quarters that day may not be eligible to play in any more games. (My state says 4 quarters a day; I know others allow 5 quarters.)

Once we learn the player is not eligible (because the coach tells us that), we cannot assess the technical foul.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Defined where? The definition of bench personnel does not include the phrase "sitting on the bench."

No, wasn't what I was implying. I was responding to you initial question, "what if they sit on the bench?" If they are on the bench then there would be no doubt that they are bench personnel, affiliated with the team

Case Book 4.32.2 gives the example of a trainer who is sitting @ the end of the bench who isn't specifically pointed out in Rule 4-34 but would be defined as affiliated with the team.

Case Book 10.4.1 Further elaborates on what is considered, "bench" personnel. ...considered to be bench personnel and have violated the rules governing conduct while on the "bench."

Originally Posted by just another ref

But to say that a player who is dressed like the JV team and participating in the warm ups with the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team, as far as I'm concerned, is a reasonable conclusion.

So you didn't really address my last point...

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

To say that a player who is dressed like the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team just can't be right. If it were correct then any Freshman, or Varsity player sitting in the stands dressed could be called with a bench "T" then pinned to the coach for unsporting comments/actions.

We all know thats not possible! If thats not possible then how is it possible to assess a Bench "T" to the varsity player who dunked in the JV warm up?

Are you saying that as long as they are in the same or nearly the same uniform that they would be automatically affiliated with the team?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Are you saying that as long as they are in the same or nearly the same uniform that they would be automatically affiliated with the team?

The uniform alone means nothing. The fact that they are warming up with the team is quite significant. Combine the two and I consider that to be an affiliation. The other eligibility issues you refer to are not NFHS rules, so they are not my problem. Also, if a player has 5 fouls and is seated on the bench, he is no longer eligible to play, but he is still bench personnel and is subject to restrictions therein.

[Ignats75]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Ignats, for years it's been my job in our local association to answer complaints about our officials. If the official(s) have followed the rules, or if they have exhibited anything close to common sense when dealing with situations, we can then tell the complainers very nicely to piss off. In a situation like the one being discussed, I'm in a spot. If the complaint says that the calling official was told by the head coach, official scorer and home A.D. that the person dunking was not affiliated with a particular team, you tell me how I'm going to justify any official issuing a technical foul without any proof under those circumstances.

You have to answer complaints honestly and without trying to blow smoke up anyone's azz. You also expect and demand that the other side does exactly the same thing when we, as officials, have problems and complaints with them. That's my point, and it's got nothing to do with lack of courage or failing to back up my members either.

Fair enough. And I dare say, that you would be able to answer the complaint honestly, whether you would take the same action or not, that since the limitation in the rules contains the words "is not limited to" that the calling official judged that the varsity players were affiliated with the JV team. Logic alone says that particularly when you look at the definition of affiliated:

af·fil·i·at·ed /əˈfɪliˌeɪtɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-fil-ee-ey-tid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective being in close formal or informal association; related:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affiliated

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The uniform alone means nothing. The fact that they are warming up with the team is quite significant. Combine the two and I consider that to be an affiliation. The other eligibility issues you refer to are not NFHS rules, so they are not my problem. Also, if a player has 5 fouls and is seated on the bench, he is no longer eligible to play, but he is still bench personnel and is subject to restrictions therein.

You keep focusing on "affiliated" and I try to get you to see the phrase "eligible to become a player."

Affiliated is included in the definition of bench personnel. This definition brings under the umbrella not only players, but trainers, assistant coaches, scorers, kids not dressed because of injury, etc.

Now...what if any of these non-players, not in uniform dunked? Would you say that is must be a T because they are "affiliated." I doubt it. You would go to the next key words: "in uniform." Since they are not in uniform, you would have game management kick them off the court.

So why do you decide that "eligible to become a player" is none of your business, since the NFHS does not put restrictions on things like seniors playing on the JV team or too many quarters in a single day?

The rule is what it is. It could as easily have been written to be more -- or less -- inclusive. I think it matters that it specifically includes the phrase "eligible to become a player."

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The uniform alone means nothing. The fact that they are warming up with the team is quite significant. Combine the two and I consider that to be an affiliation. The other eligibility issues you refer to are not NFHS rules, so they are not my problem. Also, if a player has 5 fouls and is seated on the bench, he is no longer eligible to play, but he is still bench personnel and is subject to restrictions therein.

OK! So if they are in uniform and take it upon them selves to shoot around with the JV team and one of the Varsity members dunks then leaves the floor your still "whacking"?

What if the varsity players are standing along the endline in uniform and one of them just grabs a ball and dunks it. No other varsity members are warming up. You still whacking and defining them as JV team members?

As far as your point about a DQ'd player not being eligible. Your right 100% but he/she is bench personnel. Read the case plays I mentioned before. Misconduct while ON the bench.

The question of this debate is that these players are never going to sit on the bench, they are never going to be in the book. They are non team members who shouldn't be allowed to warm up with the JV team during the JV's pre game warm up period.

Your only reasoning behind them being affiliated is that they have the same/nearly the same uniform on and that they are warming up with the JV team. I understand that if a player dunks then we know we should have a "T" but once (Like JR pointed out) we notify the team member and he says something like,"I was fooling around. I'm not on the JV team." We can't assess the penalty because he isn't apart of the team.

Lets say you let the Varsity warm up with the JV team. You have been notified of this and think its no big deal. You consider all of the Varsity members as affiliates. Warm ups go on with out any problems. Warm ups are over JV players go to their bench and the Varsity players sit 2 or 3 rows up in the stands.

During the game you hear and see one of the Varsity players make what you define as a unsporting comment. Would you penalize this with a Bench "T" since they warmed up with the JV and are dressed the same? Are you considering them bench personnel ,since by your reasoning ,they are affiliates of the JV team?

Of course you wouldn't. So you have to see where your argument of considering them affiliates doesn't hold up. They can't be team members for part of the time and not all of the time. They are either affiliates or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

They can't be team members for part of the time and not all of the time. They are either affiliates or not.

Let me ask something here.
During the first half, you have 2 assistant coaches. Then, midway through the third quarter you notice there is only one sidekick. A little bit later you hear a fan making comments; comments that would earn a coach a T but don't merit response when they come from a fan. You turn and notice it's the missing assistant coach. You going to whack him?