Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Ignats75]

Rule 4 Section 34 Art. 2... Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

I would contend that players in similar uniforms, warming up with team members, are affiliated with a team. If they retreat to the stands to watch the game, they are no longer affiliated with the team.

That interpretation would be covered under Rule 2 Section 3 Article 1

[wisref2]

I'm thinking that I'm not going to allow it - though I'd love some rule support to back me up.

1 - they (probably) aren't legally equipped and you're not supposed to be wearing illegal equipment even during warmups.

2 - they aren't part of the team. If varsity players are allowed to warm up with the JV, that's no different than letting fans on the floor to warm up with them.

3 - the liability of allowing non-participants on the floor.

[BillyMac]

My local IAABO board interpreter has emailed me and has said that varsity players warming up before a junior varsity game, while officials are on the floor, is illegal. He will expound upon this at Sunday's monthly meeting. If I learn more, like citations, I'll share with the Forum next week.

[ga314ref]

I think if you go back and read JR's rationale and rule cites, you may see it differently.

[Texas Aggie]

now I disagree with everybody

Surprisingly enough, not me. I agree with everything you wrote -- at least through page 2 (didn't read the rest!).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS AT TIME OF DUNK IN PREGAME????????

I go check with the head coach and the scorer to make sure that the player(s) is actually affiliated with the team. If they say "yes", I issue the "T" and an indirect "T" to the head coach. If they say "no", I get game management to immediately clear them off of the court. I try not to assume anything. Every time I do assume something, it seems to come back and bite me on the azz.

Don't let that stop you from assuming that they're affiliated with that team though.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I understand your logic.. but from where I'm coming from JV players often times have different uniforms (some are wearing JV and some varisty if they will have to be ready to go at conclusion of JV game). So I'm looking at everyone over there shooting and taking layups before the JV game as JV players... (Whod've thunk it?) Guess what. If that varsity player dunks, I'm T'ing him up just as MTD said. And said JV coach does have option of sending the player out of the JV game and into the "locker room" at start of first quarter. But he's getting an indirect T to start the game and if he's put in book then sent off he won't even get credit for playing in JV game so it's no worry about the whole 5 quarter thing here in Ohio.

I would suggest maybe reading the entire thread!

[just another ref]

10-3-4: A player shall not grasp either basket.......dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game....... This item applies to all team members.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team.

Look up a list of synonyms for the word affiliated and you may find, among others, "associated," and "in with." If a player is in uniform and participating in warmups with a group of similarly/identically dressed players, I would consider that player to be "associated" with that group, or "in with" that group, and thus, subject to rules and penalties which apply to other members of that group.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.
__________________

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I go check with the head coach and the scorer to make sure that the player(s) is actually affiliated with the team. If they say "yes", I issue the "T" and an indirect "T" to the head coach. If they say "no", I get game management to immediately clear them off of the court. I try not to assume anything. Every time I do assume something, it seems to come back and bite me on the azz.

Don't let that stop you from assuming that they're affiliated with that team though.

JR:

Please don't tell me are you going to recind a TF? You just can't do it. Just listen to your logic. It just doesn't sound like you. Has the spirit of Old School invaded your body and brain.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

Please don't tell me are you going to recind a TF? You just can't do it. Just listen to your logic. It just doesn't sound like you. Has the spirit of Old School invaded your body and brain.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, how can I rescind something that I never called in the first place?

For the umpty-ump time, I am NOT calling a technical foul on any PERSON who is not affiliated with a team. To ascertain whether that person is affiliated with the team, I am going to rely on what the team's head coach and the official scorer tell me. If they tell me that the person is NOT affiliated with the team, I have NO reason NOT to believe them. I also then have NO rules justification to issue technical fouls to anyone unless I try to use R2-8-1 and "T" 'em up as being a fan interfering with the game. I will simply get anyone that is not affiliated with the team immediately removed from the court, same as what is normally done with any fan being out there.

If the head coach/official scorer DO tell me that the person is affiliated with the team, then they will get a "T" if they have dunked the ball, and the head coach will also get an indirect "T". I have rules justification to do that. Those "T"s will not be rescinded.

RIF.

As I said, if anyone wants to assume that a person is affiliated with a team without first checking to find out whether they actually are or not, be my guest. I'm not the one that's going to have to answer any complaint that is put in.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mark, how can I rescind something that I never called in the first place?

For the umpty-ump time, I am NOT calling a technical foul on any PERSON who is not affiliated with a team.

So if you are observing the warmup and see two guys, dressed in uniforms just like everyone else, dunk the ball, you are going to go inquire as to who they are before calling a T? What if those guys do sit on the bench during the game? If one starts screaming about a call, would you let the coach tell you then that he was not affiliated with the team?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As I said, if anyone wants to assume that a person is affiliated with a team without first checking to find out whether they actually are or not, be my guest. I'm not the one that's going to have to answer any complaint that is put in.

I would not assume that a player in uniform who dunks is affiliated with the team whose uniform he's wearing. I would infer it, just as I infer that everyone wearing that uniform is affiliated with that team. You do, too, JR, every time a sub comes on the floor. I would guess, JR, that you don't go to the coach every time a sub comes in the game to ask whether the sub's affiliated with the team.

A kid wearing a uniform is a good reason to conclude that the kid is affiliated with the team -- that conclusion would hardly be a baseless assumption. The inference can be mistaken, but it's still highly reliable.

I've been instructed to assess a T whenever anyone in uniform dunks during warm ups. Lately, I've had kids on the floor out of uniform -- some apparently younger than HS age -- and this situation worries me more.

[Ignats75]

RIF.

As I said, if anyone wants to assume that a person is affiliated with a team without first checking to find out whether they actually are or not, be my guest. I'm not the one that's going to have to answer any complaint that is put in.

JR, With all due respect, no matter where anyone stands on this situation, I would hope that fear of complaints would not be a criteria for ANY call ANY official would make. It sounds uncourageous to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

JR, With all due respect, no matter where anyone stands on this situation, I would hope that fear of complaints would not be a criteria for ANY call ANY official would make. It sounds uncourageous to me.

Ignats, for years it's been my job in our local association to answer complaints about our officials. If the official(s) have followed the rules, or if they have exhibited anything close to common sense when dealing with situations, we can then tell the complainers very nicely to piss off. In a situation like the one being discussed, I'm in a spot. If the complaint says that the calling official was told by the head coach, official scorer and home A.D. that the person dunking was not affiliated with a particular team, you tell me how I'm going to justify any official issuing a technical foul without any proof under those circumstances.

You have to answer complaints honestly and without trying to blow smoke up anyone's azz. You also expect and demand that the other side does exactly the same thing when we, as officials, have problems and complaints with them. That's my point, and it's got nothing to do with lack of courage or failing to back up my members either.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I would not assume that a player in uniform who dunks is affiliated with the team whose uniform he's wearing. I would infer it, just as I infer that everyone wearing that uniform is affiliated with that team.

Oh? The recommended FED mechanic is for the calling official to immediately notify the team member who dunked the ball that he just got a "T", and then notify the head coach. That's case book play 10.3.4SitC. If the person that you inferred was a team member immediately tells you that he is NOT affiliated with that team and the team's head coach then backs that up, are you still going to infer that he really was a team member and go ahead and issue that "T"?

Not me. I'm just gonna run his butt off the floor, and write up a post-game report about the incident asking for better crowd control in the warm-up. If the player and coach lied, it will come out.