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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 01:00am
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This happened last week in a D1 game. It was Kentucky versus ???? I have no idea who was playing becuase I spend my time watching the officials. The ball went out of bounds on the base line and the lead made a very strong call to show who's ball it was. Immediately C came across to him and they had a 10 second discussion and L changed his call. No complaints at all from the coaches or players. I have to assume that these folks pre-game this stuff so that they WILL NOT come to you on a OOB situation unless, as MTD said earlier, they are 200% sure. If they are not, they don't come. Does that mean that if partner comes to you it is an automatic call change? No, but it if you pre-game it right it should give you a very strong indication that you were incorrect. What's my point? Watch games at all levels and watch the officials because you learn so much from them. Also, a good pre-game, which I know is not always possible at all levels, helps a lot when these situations arise.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 01:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
This happened last week in a D1 game. It was Kentucky versus ???? I have no idea who was playing becuase I spend my time watching the officials. The ball went out of bounds on the base line and the lead made a very strong call to show who's ball it was. Immediately C came across to him and they had a 10 second discussion and L changed his call. No complaints at all from the coaches or players. I have to assume that these folks pre-game this stuff so that they WILL NOT come to you on a OOB situation unless, as MTD said earlier, they are 200% sure. If they are not, they don't come. Does that mean that if partner comes to you it is an automatic call change? No, but it if you pre-game it right it should give you a very strong indication that you were incorrect. What's my point? Watch games at all levels and watch the officials because you learn so much from them. Also, a good pre-game, which I know is not always possible at all levels, helps a lot when these situations arise.

Johnny:

Pre-gaming is the most important thing. I taught my student officials, that: (1) The C should be 200% sure that the L couldn't see what he saw. (2) And that if he is 200% sure then the conversation should go one of the following three ways:

Conversation 1:

L: Red ball.

C: I saw White touch the ball after Red touched it.

L: Okay. I will change my call. White ball.


Conversation 2:

L: Red ball.

C: I saw White touch the ball after Red touched it.

L: I know, and then White touched the ball again. Red ball.


Conversation 3:

L: Red ball.

C: I saw White touch the ball after Red touched it.

L: I am positive that White never touched the ball. We are staying with Red ball. Red ball.


But in all three conversations, it is the L that still makes the final decision.

MTD, Sr.
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 08:48am
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Thanks Mark. That's a great way to explain it and handle it and will make it about a 5 second conversation. I'll remember that.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 26, 2008, 07:58pm
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Its a good thing you didn't call a foul in your partner's PCA!!!!
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 09:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Johnny:

Pre-gaming is the most important thing. I taught my student officials, that: (1) The C should be 200% sure that the L couldn't see what he saw. (2) And that if he is 200% sure then the conversation should go one of the following three ways:
And (3) that if he is 200% sure, he needs to take a math class.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 09:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
And (3) that if he is 200% sure, he needs to take a math class.
Amen!!!!!!!!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 09:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
I want to make sure of what I have read so far

Ball is at FT line extended... Was it above or below?
Ball goes out of bounds at lead's sideline.

In games around here if it is above FT kine extended the sideline is trail's first shot...

We would be pregaming it... but it may be Trail's calll

I want to make sure of what I have read so far


So, don't tell me if the ball goes OOB on lead sideline above FTL extended the trail will run across the court to admin the throw-in.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
I want to make sure of what I have read so far


So, don't tell me if the ball goes OOB on lead sideline above FTL extended the trail will run across the court to admin the throw-in.
Consider yourself not told, but that is the mechanic.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Consider yourself not told, but that is the mechanic.

You know Bob you are right!! I'm thinking if this was under two man mechanics; three man correct trail has throw-in if above FTL extended. Two man they will switch lead will come up and admin the throw-in.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 01:59pm
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Did the ball go out of bounds on the baseline or table-side sideline?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 04:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
I want to make sure of what I have read so far

Ball is at FT line extended... Was it above or below?
Doesn't matter. (assuming 2-man)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
Ball goes out of bounds at lead's sideline
In games around here if it is above FT kine extended the sideline is trail's first shot...

We would be pregaming it... but it may be Trail's calll
The lead owns the entire sideline all the way to the backcourt endline. Lead has the whistle and the call unless they ask for help from the trail (which a wise lead will often do when it is above the FT line extended)
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 04:24pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 04:41pm
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Originally Posted by truerookie
I want to make sure of what I have read so far


So, don't tell me if the ball goes OOB on lead sideline above FTL extended the trail will run across the court to admin the throw-in.





Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Consider yourself not told, but that is the mechanic.
No it's not....at least not the NFHS official mechanic...

(The above can't be about 3-man since the lead wouldn't need to run across the court to cover anything)

From the NFHS officials manual with Diagram 24 (2005-07 book).
"Lead official administers the throw-in for which he/she is responsible. If the designated spot for the throw-in is above the free-throw line extended, the Lead official administering the throw-in will now become the new trail. The original Trail becomes the new lead.... This is the only non-foul situation in which officials will force a dead-ball switch."
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 04:44pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 04:41pm
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NFHS or IAABO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Assuming 2-man, the lead owns the entire sideline all the way to the backcourt endline. Lead has the whistle and the call unless they ask for help from the trail (which a wise lead will often do when it is above the FT line extended)
Unless your using IAABO mechanics. There is only one boundary line responsibility diagram in the manual. The lead has the nearest endline, and sideline below free throwline extended. The trail has the division line, all the backcourt, nearest endline, and farther sideline above free throw line extended. This diagram is listed as an option, but there is no other option offered, or described, in the manual.

My local IAABO board switched from NFHS mechanics to IAABO mechanics a few years ago. Our IAABO handbook no longer contains NFHS mechanics. It contains an IAABO directory, a NFHS rule book, a NFHS case book, and an IAABO mechanics manual.

I hate the IAABO mechanics. In many cases the manual suggests options that must be pregamed before every game to be sure that you and your partner are on the same page. There's even an option for a rotation when the trail moves across the basket line, the lead rotates to the other side. There's also an option to the old official-ball-official boxing in principle. It's like IAABO is using three man mechanics in a two man game. What was wrong with the old NFHS mechanics? They worked well for me for over twenty-plus years.

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 04:53pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 04:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrao
This happened last week in a D1 game. It was Kentucky versus ???? I have no idea who was playing becuase I spend my time watching the officials. The ball went out of bounds on the base line and the lead made a very strong call to show who's ball it was. Immediately C came across to him and they had a 10 second discussion and L changed his call. No complaints at all from the coaches or players. I have to assume that these folks pre-game this stuff so that they WILL NOT come to you on a OOB situation unless, as MTD said earlier, they are 200% sure. If they are not, they don't come. Does that mean that if partner comes to you it is an automatic call change? No, but it if you pre-game it right it should give you a very strong indication that you were incorrect. What's my point? Watch games at all levels and watch the officials because you learn so much from them. Also, a good pre-game, which I know is not always possible at all levels, helps a lot when these situations arise.
I think it was UK vs. Florida (could have been Tennesse though). Rebounder A4 pulled ball down right under the basket when an opponent B3 got an arm through from behind (between the rebounder's arm and body). B3 poked the ball out of A4's hands..and directly OOB. From the live action, I couldn't tell how the rebounder lost the ball. It sort of squirted out of his hands but you couldn't see anyone elses hands involved. The lead made a strong call (from the same side of the floor as the camera) and gave it to B. The C came in from the other side (where the poke could be seen) and gave info the the L....who reversed the call. Replays confirmed the final call.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 27, 2008, 05:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Unless your using IAABO mechanics. There is only one boundary line responsibility diagram in the manual. The lead has the nearest endline, and sideline below free throwline extended. The trail has the division line, all the backcourt, nearest endline, and farther sideline above free throw line extended. This diagram is listed as an option, but there is no other option offered, or described, in the manual.

My local IAABO board switched from NFHS mechanics to IAABO mechanics a few years ago. Our IAABO handbook no longer contains NFHS mechanics. It contains an IAABO directory, a NFHS rule book, a NFHS case book, and an IAABO mechanics manual.

I hate the IAABO mechanics. In many cases the manual suggests options that must be pregamed before every game to be sure that you and your partner are on the same page. There's even an option for a rotation when the trail moves across the basket line, the lead rotates to the other side. There's also an option to the old official-ball-official boxing in principle. It's like IAABO is using three man mechanics in a two man game. What was wrong with the old NFHS mechanics? They worked well for me for over twenty-plus years.

Billy:

I think you are confusing throw-in responsibility with out-of-bound violation coverage responsibility. The IAABO mechanics on pages 44 and 45 of the IAABO H.S. Handbook refer to throw-in resposibilities not out-of-bound violation converage repsonsibility. The mechanic on page 44 is an old NCAA Women's 2-man mechanic that I find to be a good mechanic but the mechanic on page 45 is the correct NFHS mechanic and is also an accepted IAABO mechanic.

I feel your pain when the bal does go out-of-bounds above the free throw line extended as on page 44 of the IAABO H.S. Handbook is a good example of situations that need to be pre-gamed. Out-of-bounds violations on that sideline are the responsibility of the L, but when the ball goes over in the area which you are concerned, the T has to have a patient whistle in case the L doesn't make a call, and needs to be ready to help the L if he does put air in his whistle. In those situations I, as the L, will know 99% of the time that the ball went out-of-bounds and that is all because of coverage in the paint, and I will put air in the whistle and then give the call up to the T because he will most likely have the best look at the play.

MTD, Sr.
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Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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Ohio High School Athletic Association
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