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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:31pm
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I'd bet a paycheck you don't know the color of ONE of the Rules Books

Funny story.

I was working a boys Sophomore/Freshman game, I can't remember and it doesn't matter in the end. It was sub-JV.

I'm administering a throw-in at the division line. A1 throws the ball to A2 while A2 is in the air. A2 jumped from the front-court to the back-court, but caught the ball in the air. The coach of team B yells "over and back!". In my head I'm thinking REALLY? Did you just say that?. So I go over to him for an explanation per his vehement request and tell him there's no Team Control on a throw in so the front-court is not established yet, therefore there is no "over" on the "over and back". He was mystified, and this is the icing on the cake: a fan of team B yells at me while I'm walking away from the coach "Your wrong. Read a rule book!"

Does anyone want to bet me that either of those two men can't give the color of ONE of the rule books?

I can take the abuse if I make a marginal call against a team, but one thing I can't get over is stupid people. I just needed a place to vent.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
and tell him there's no Team Control on a throw in so the front-court is not established yet, therefore there is no "over" on the "over and back".
I'm sure you know this, but there is team control and frontcourt status as soon as A2 catches the throw-in pass. When he lands in the backcourt, he has carried the ball from the frontcourt to the backcourt. So your explanation doesn't really explain why there's no violation.

The reason there's no violation is that it's a specific exception to the backcourt rule.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:48pm
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I feel your pain. One of the very last wreck games I ever worked involved an exchange with some freaking idiot arguing with me about whether he can have the block on a free throw (the league plays HS rules). He "kindly suggested" that I read the rule book. I came within a hair's breadth of telling him the only way to avoid the T I was about to give him was to correctly name the color of this year's rules book. But I didn't do it. At the end of the day, I wasn't the one there playing in the "C league" because he was trying to prove something.

BTW, what is it with rec league bozos and the block? It's not like it gives anybody that much of an advantage. But you'd think that it was life or death to some of them.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
but one thing I can't get over is stupid people.
Then you'd better move to Antarctica.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:59pm
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Had a situation last year. 2 T's and ejection of MSG coach. As required, made report to state. Received a response from them within the hour. It was a copy of what they sent to the school superintendent, principal and athletic director. They wanted the answers to some questions, some of which were.

1. Was the coach a teacher? If not, when was the last time they took the required ASEP coaching course?

2. What were the last 5 scores on rules examination (or however many years they had been coaching)

3. How many other incidents had there been regarding that coach and officials.

4. Had there been and diciplinary action taken against that coach as a result of their coaching duties.

There were more - but I don't remember them all. The school had 72 hours to comply.

About a week later got another email from state that said that diciplinary action had been taken to the satisfaction of the state. I didn't know and didn't care exactly what that was. In any case - I'll bet she at least attends the rules meetings and takes the exam now if she is still coaching.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 01:10pm
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I'm sure you know this, but there is team control and frontcourt status as soon as A2 catches the throw-in pass. When he lands in the backcourt, he has carried the ball from the frontcourt to the backcourt. So your explanation doesn't really explain why there's no violation.

The reason there's no violation is that it's a specific exception to the backcourt rule.
Agreed. This shows why and how it's important that we convey the proper message.

Beemer:

Kudos though for getting the call right!

Interesting about the fan though. What was he claiming that you were wrong about: (a) the call or (b) your wording to the coach (how did he hear what you said to the coach?)
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chartrusepengui
Had a situation last year. 2 T's and ejection of MSG coach. As required, made report to state. Received a response from them within the hour. It was a copy of what they sent to the school superintendent, principal and athletic director. They wanted the answers to some questions, some of which were.

1. Was the coach a teacher? If not, when was the last time they took the required ASEP coaching course?

2. What were the last 5 scores on rules examination (or however many years they had been coaching)

3. How many other incidents had there been regarding that coach and officials.

4. Had there been and diciplinary action taken against that coach as a result of their coaching duties.

There were more - but I don't remember them all. The school had 72 hours to comply.

About a week later got another email from state that said that diciplinary action had been taken to the satisfaction of the state. I didn't know and didn't care exactly what that was. In any case - I'll bet she at least attends the rules meetings and takes the exam now if she is still coaching.
This is a routine email WI sends out when a coach is ejected.

I saw the same type of thing when an assistant baseball coach got himself tossed by me in a regional a few years ago. The state also mentioned his other two ejections, one of which was 10 years earlier. They keep good records on these things, believe me.

One baseball season a group of 5 of us at the rules meeting realized we accounted for 10% of the entire state's baseball HC ejections the previous season. And we are still rated very highly by the coaches, believe it or not.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 01:18pm
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It may be routine to the state - but not to the school involved. I work with a woman whose dad was principal there. He was not happy. Apparently - he got another email at noon on the 3rd day because they had not yet received a reply. They do keep great records! It's also nice to know they at least follow up on these reports.

Had another one this week. Player gets two T's and had to make report. Assoc. Dir emailed me to verify that player indeed received two T's in same game. Wanted an immediate reply as the player would be suspended by the state from her next contest if it were true. It was - she was.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
The reason there's no violation is that it's a specific exception to the backcourt rule.
Ah ha. Right call for the wrong reason. Thanks Scrapper.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
What was he claiming that you were wrong about: (a) the call or (b) your wording to the coach (how did he hear what you said to the coach?)
The call. I'm sure he could hear us it was pretty quiet in the gym at the time. He was only 5-8 rows up.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:21pm
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in the future

Citing an exception to a rule seems like it wouldn't go over well with a coach. As a referee could make up any "exception" to a rule so that he's right. I'm trying hard this year to interact better with coaches, so how does this sound for a proper explanation:

"Coach you are correct under normal circumstances, however there is an exception to the rule that allows this play to be legal when the ball is being inbounded. Should the ball have been in play when he passed it, a violation would have occurred."
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
Citing an exception to a rule seems like it wouldn't go over well with a coach. As a referee could make up any "exception" to a rule so that he's right. I'm trying hard this year to interact better with coaches, so how does this sound for a proper explanation:

"Coach you are correct under normal circumstances, however there is an exception to the rule that allows this play to be legal when the ball is being inbounded. Should the ball have been in play when he passed it, a violation would have occurred."
Too wordy. Try for 5 words or fewer.

"Not during a throw-in, coach."
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
Citing an exception to a rule seems like it wouldn't go over well with a coach. As a referee could make up any "exception" to a rule so that he's right. I'm trying hard this year to interact better with coaches, so how does this sound for a proper explanation:

"Coach you are correct under normal circumstances, however there is an exception to the rule that allows this play to be legal when the ball is being inbounded. Should the ball have been in play when he passed it, a violation would have occurred."
I don't mind the content of that response. I do think it's too long, though.

Unless the coach is new to coaching and/or the rules of basketball, I might go with something like, "Coach, there is an exception during throw-ins that makes that pass legal."
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
Citing an exception to a rule seems like it wouldn't go over well with a coach. As a referee could make up any "exception" to a rule so that he's right.
But if that exception is actually in the rules, what are you making up? There are many rules coaches and players get incorrect; it could be from watching NCAA and NBA games, where the rules are different from NF rules. I wouldn't worry about what a coach thinks, especially if you know you got the call correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer
I'm trying hard this year to interact better with coaches, so how does this sound for a proper explanation:

"Coach you are correct under normal circumstances, however there is an exception to the rule that allows this play to be legal when the ball is being inbounded. Should the ball have been in play when he passed it, a violation would have occurred."
Maybe a little wordy; I would keep explanations as simple as possible: "Coach, backcourt violation does not apply during a jump ball or throw-in." More often than not, it doesn't matter how eloquently you phrase your explanation, even if you also include the exact rule reference numbers and case book plays, coaches will still not believe your answer. So, to save time, give them the Cliff's Notes version, and get the ball back in play so they will move on to the play at hand.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 04:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Too wordy. Try for 5 words or fewer.

"Not during a throw-in, coach."
Does hyphenating "throw-in" make it one word instead of two?
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