Partner called Travel OOB?

[inigo montoya]

It's over the line because of what you're asking some who is not only new to officiating but also young. By the book, one official does not have the authority to overrule another. What everyone is suggesting here takes something that you don't come to possess just by putting on the stripes and a whistle. Your response did not in anyway help this guy do his job better. I don't know how things are where you are, but there is a shortage of good officials where I am. But when new guys come in, you can't expect them to be pros immediately. If we put that expectation on them, we're only going to drive them away and I know we can't afford that here.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I had a kid dribble very close to the endline on an inbounds play. If any part of the ball contacts inbounds during that dribble, then we have a violation, yes?

vert.

Based on the definitions of a "throw-in" in Rule 4, yes ... if he dribbles the ball in bounds and touches it again, i have a violation. If his dribble went inbounds and he does not touch it again (unlikely)... I would consider it a throw-in and discontinue my count... however, until the ball is touched by another player the throw-in does not end, just the throw-in count.

[Splute]

[quote=truerookie]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I think this is over the line, in this case. The poster is admittedly young -- probably relatively new -- and dealing with a much older, more established (although perhaps less qualified) official. It's not easy at all to go against the forceful ruling of a more advanced official when you're just starting out.

Ok, and this means what. It is obvious that the poster can identify that the older gentlemen is lazy and out of shape from his initial observation of him. He should be able to identify that he allowed this older lazy gentlemen encourage him to kick a rule. When he stated himself that it was wrong. So how is that over the line Scrapper.

Furthermore, if he had stood his ground and now defies the Vet official and proceeds to allow Red to throw-in, do we assume the Vet is just gonna accept it? It reads as if he may blow his whistle and stop play again until White throws it in. What does this official gain at this point by belaboring the issue. Had the coaches chirped in, the youngster may have had a chance. It is better for the game at hand to move on. This one play will not decide the final outcome. This vet is probably well known in the area and it would not have been prudent at this time for the newbie to make a stand. Save it for half time or after the game or take it to the assignors as mentioned. We must be partners on the floor and give a sense of professionalism, even if it means one of us has to bite their tongue.

[Back In The Saddle]

[QUOTE=Splute]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Furthermore, if he had stood his ground and now defies the Vet official and proceeds to allow Red to throw-in, do we assume the Vet is just gonna accept it? It reads as if he may blow his whistle and stop play again until White throws it in. What does this official gain at this point by belaboring the issue. Had the coaches chirped in, the youngster may have had a chance. It is better for the game at hand to move on. This one play will not decide the final outcome. This vet is probably well known in the area and it would not have been prudent at this time for the newbie to make a stand. Save it for half time or after the game or take it to the assignors as mentioned. We must be partners on the floor and give a sense of professionalism, even if it means one of us has to bite their tongue.

I'm sure this vet probably is "well known" in this area. But it won't be for his good points.

[Splute]

lol, nope not if the truth gets out... surely others have noticed his performance.... but then again, we are only getting one side of the story

[truerookie]

[QUOTE=inigo montoya]It's over the line because of what you're asking some who is not only new to officiating but also young. I don't know how things are where you are, but there is a shortage of good officials where I am.

How does this makes this young official a good official in the future?



By allowing a rule to be kick because of a veteran official misapplication of a rule. I think it hurts more than help this young official. In the future, he may not ever attempt to stand by a what he believe is correct because of someone's veteran status. Because he will always remember this time in which a veteran overturn his call. Officiating is about developing confidence too just in case you have forgotten.

By this official being young it can cause second guessing too in the future when it comes to rule application due to the status of his partner(s).

So, I still stand by what I said.

It's just as wrong to kick a rule.

[deecee]

[QUOTE=truerookie]

Originally Posted by inigo montoya

It's over the line because of what you're asking some who is not only new to officiating but also young. I don't know how things are where you are, but there is a shortage of good officials where I am.

How does this makes this young official a good official in the future?



By allowing a rule to be kick because of a veteran official misapplication of a rule. I think it hurts more than help this young official. In the future, he may not ever attempt to stand by a what he believe is correct because of someone's veteran status. Because he will always remember this time in which a veteran overturn his call. Officiating is about developing confidence too just in case you have forgotten.

By this official being young it can cause second guessing too in the future when it comes to rule application due to the status of his partner(s).

So, I still stand by what I said.

It's just as wrong to kick a rule.

Do you condone a full on argument at half court -- or any part of the court -- between the 2 officials? sometimes you gotta get in and get out. Him arguing would not have changed anything except to get Billy Bob to start into more weight throwing during the rest of the game.

[Splute]

[quote]

Originally Posted by truerookie By allowing a rule to be kick because of a veteran official misapplication of a rule. I think it hurts more than help this young official. In the future, he may not ever attempt to stand by a what he believe is correct because of someone's veteran status. Because he will always remember this time in which a veteran overturn his call. Officiating is about developing confidence too just in case you have forgotten.

By this official being young it can cause second guessing too in the future when it comes to rule application due to the status of his partner(s).

So, I still stand by what I said.

It's just as wrong to kick a rule.[/quote

In my opinion, since that is what we are obviously throwing around, he stood his ground by letting the Vet official know what the ruling should be... he was still overruled. There is a time and place for every battle, he will need to choose those carefully. Nothing will be gained by two officials hashing it out on the court. Get the game started and move on. Its about the kids playing; not the officials debating.

[BayStateRef]

The last time I had a partner try to make up a rule that did not exist, I went to him privately and told him the proper rule. He insisted he was right. I told him that I if I was right, I got his game fee; if he was right, he got mine. It was amazing how suddenly he was not so sure about the proper rule, This discussion took less than 15 seconds.

If that does not work, I agree that the officials cannot continue to argue over the proper rule. Accept the call and move on.

A quick aside....the most uncomfortable "disagreement" I have been party to on a court was at a youth travel league a few years ago. I started what was to be the first of three games with an official, when a third official comes into the gym. There was no doubt I was at the proper gym...but the other two guys both swore they had the assignment too. The latecomer heads over to the school next door, where other games in that league are being played. Ten minutes later he comes back, saying those games are covered, and insisting that this is his game. I have to "referee" this match over who works (and who gets the game fees.) We had already stopped the game once to deal with this...and now the third guy insists that we stop it again so that he can take over. He won't stop. I tell him to wait until halftime; to wait for the next game; to go home and deal with the assignor. It took way too long before he left in a huff.

A couple of hours later the assignor showed up. He had made a mistake and did assign both guys to the same gym. I realize some officials work only for the money...and to lose $120 in fees matters to some. But it was real uncomfortable to watch.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Splute

In my opinion, since that is what we are obviously throwing around, he stood his ground by letting the Vet official know what the ruling should be... he was still overruled. There is a time and place for every battle, he will need to choose those carefully. Nothing will be gained by two officials hashing it out on the court. Get the game started and move on. Its about the kids playing; not the officials debating.

I agree. The kids are the focal point.

[archangel]

Showed up to work frosh/JV games. Between those games the scorekeeper mentioned that we were doing a great job compared to the officials working games there earlier (thinking, oh oh, here comes the complaining!). He then said that those officials (both had left before we arrived) got in a halfcourt shoving match w/ each other, both shouting "Its your job" back and forth. No additional info on how/why was available besides another adult nearby confirming scorekeepers story.
Now I know that rules shouldnt be kicked, but sometimes one needs to back down to keep the game flowing.
I like the "bet my gamecheck I'm right vs yours" comment.

[truerookie]

Look people, I understand your points. It still does not change my mind. These type of situations I agree does not look good. BUT, when it is obvious to all parties involved that a rule has been kicked in my mind it really questions the officials integrity.

Being a young official myself <4 years experience. I have been put in similar situations by Veteran official to see if I had the confidence to correctly apply a rule they kick on purpose to see if I would challenge them.

I was not aware of that until after the game during post game conference. This is when it was brought to my attention. Is this cool? NO, but it happened to me.

So, who is to say this young official was not put in a similar situation. This is why I took the approach I took. I have experienced it.

[RSmith]

:d

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by archangel

Showed up to work frosh/JV games. Between those games the scorekeeper mentioned that we were doing a great job compared to the officials working games there earlier (thinking, oh oh, here comes the complaining!). He then said that those officials (both had left before we arrived) got in a halfcourt shoving match w/ each other,

Reminds me of the last time I worked with Chuck.... I gave him the 2 armed chest shove and put my back out reaching down to hit him.

Here he is at a clinic he runs in the summer for local officials.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Officiating is about developing confidence too just in case you have forgotten.

Rook, how exactly does telling him that he has no balls help to develop his confidence?

Your point that he allowed the vet to intimidate him into deliberately misapplying a rule is valid. But telling a new official who already knows the situation was mishandled that he's less than a man was the part that was over the line, IMHO.

If you disagree, so be it. I don't want to make this thread about me. Just my thoughts on your comment.