Post move called a travel

[TigerBball]

Another basic question from a coach.

This move has generated more traveling calls so I have stopped teaching it, but I think it is legal.

Post player on right block. Player front pivots into lane using right (inside) foot as pivot. Post player pump fakes, defender bites. Post player steps (one step) toward hoop with left foot just to the outside of the defender, lifts pivot foot up going into lay-up motion and lays it in.

When this is called traveling, I try to get a clarification because sometimes my 7th graders let their pivot foot hop backwards when they try to pump fake and make the move to quickly, but that is never the reason given, it is the fact that he lifted his pivot foot when he shot.

I have talked to a ref after the came (calmly) and tried to compare it to picking up the dribble to shoot a lay-up. You get a step and pick up the pivot foot, in this post move, the only difference is he was not dribbling previous to the shoot motion. Is this a correct comparison.

[BktBallRef]

It's legal to lift the pivot foot, unless you begin a dribble first.

[ref18]

SECTION 43 TRAVELING
Traveling (running with the ball) is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows:
ART. 1 . . . A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.
ART. 2 . . . A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:

a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:

1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

b. If one foot is on the floor:

1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:

a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

ART. 4 . . . After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:

a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

ART. 5 . . . A player holding the ball:

a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining possession while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

[abudabooty]

I have studied the traveling rule thoroughly, though i am not a ref and I am amazed at how many refs get the call wrong on similar types of moves as the one mentioned above.

The move that I do and teach to my players is your basic jumpstop layup. Generally, all refs do not call it traveling if the players feet land simultaneously, but if the feet come down one then the other it is an automatic whistle.

Though this sort of move is not a travel because it classifies under article 2 which is a player coming to a stop after catching the ball while moving or *dribbling*.

Therefore the player is legally allowed to hop off of one foot while dribbling and land on one foot establishing that foot as a pivot then bring the other foot down and stop.

After coming to a stop in this manner then the player could then do the move like the one mentioned in the first entry on this page and it would be legal. As long as the pivot remains consistent.

1)When coming to a stop off of the dribble and stopping legally using a jumpstop, the player can also pivot with either foot. This usually is called a travel every time, though it is not.

2)When coming to a stop off of the dribble and stopping legally using a jumpstop, the player could step forward with one foot establishing a pivot and then lift the pivot foot to release a shot or pass before it returns down again. To many people this might sound absurd but it is legal.

to simplify your thought think of it as a player who catches the ball with both feet on the ground. the player can then pivot with either foot and release the pivot for a shot or pass before returning the established pivot to the ground.

These moves if practiced and employed are unstoppable, except only by the uneducated ref.

Please I would like to hear any comments on this by experienced refs. To me this is a great kind of "breakthrough" and I honestly think this could be the future of the game.

[ref18]

Originally posted by abudabooty

Please I would like to hear any comments on this by experienced refs. To me this is a great kind of "breakthrough" and I honestly think this could be the future of the game.

I'm not that experienced, but I know this. Traveling is one of the hardest calls for me to make. In theory and on paper it might look easy, but it can be hard. I'd rather have to chose between the block/charge all game, which I find incredibly easy then have to call traveling. Now this isn't to say that it's always hard. Sometimes travels are so blatent that they're easy to call, usually I can catch them, but they involve more thought then other calls. This thought causes delays which turns into a gap from the violation to the whistle, sometimes when this gap gets too big I just forget about the call.

From a newer official, this is a real weakness I've noticed in my game, and I've been working on it over the past 3 years and will probably continue to work on it for a lot longer until I master it, if I ever do.

[BktBallRef]

abudabooty, in order to determine whether a jumpstop is legal or traveling, you have to determine when the dribble ends. I can't read what you've posted and understand when the dribble is ending.

Bottom line:

If while holding the ball he jumps off both feet, he must shoot or pass before he lands. If he doesn't, it's traveling.

If while holding the ball he jumps off one foot, he can land simultaneously on both feet. If he lands on one foot and then the other or if he pivots after landing simultaneously, it's traveling.

If he doesn't hold the ball until after leaving the floor, he can land and normal pivot restrictions apply.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by abudabooty
I have studied the traveling rule thoroughly, though i am not a ref and I am amazed at how many refs get the call wrong on similar types of moves as the one mentioned above.

The move that I do and teach to my players is your basic jumpstop layup. Generally, all refs do not call it traveling if the players feet land simultaneously, but if the feet come down one then the other it is an automatic whistle.

Though this sort of move is not a travel because it classifies under article 2 which is a player coming to a stop after catching the ball while moving or *dribbling*.

Therefore the player is legally allowed to hop off of one foot while dribbling and land on one foot establishing that foot as a pivot then bring the other foot down and stop.

After coming to a stop in this manner then the player could then do the move like the one mentioned in the first entry on this page and it would be legal. As long as the pivot remains consistent.

1)When coming to a stop off of the dribble and stopping legally using a jumpstop, the player can also pivot with either foot. This usually is called a travel every time, though it is not.

2)When coming to a stop off of the dribble and stopping legally using a jumpstop, the player could step forward with one foot establishing a pivot and then lift the pivot foot to release a shot or pass before it returns down again. To many people this might sound absurd but it is legal.

to simplify your thought think of it as a player who catches the ball with both feet on the ground. the player can then pivot with either foot and release the pivot for a shot or pass before returning the established pivot to the ground.

These moves if practiced and employed are unstoppable, except only by the uneducated ref.

Please I would like to hear any comments on this by experienced refs. To me this is a great kind of "breakthrough" and I honestly think this could be the future of the game.

You are wrong. That's all I have to say.

[tomegun]

OK, I lied. Who are you anyway? You said this "breakthrough" could be the future of the game? That is funny. I was doing a jump stop properly more than 10 years ago (when the knees were younger and I could stop on a dime) and I didn't invent the move. Even though two steps isn't really accurate when discussing traveling, when you do a proper jump stop you do not have a pivot. Your jump stop done the right way is your "two steps." Maybe someone else can help me here but doing a jump stop off of one foot isn't easy. It is easier to actually do it off of two. I just tried to practice it in the isle. Good thing I work early and nobody else was here. Anyway, when you end the dribble "two steps" are allowed because the first foot down is considered the pivot and after the next step that pivot doesn't return to the floor. So if you examine the jump stop it isn't all that different.

When done properly both feet hit the floor and you can't have a pivot because in a sense the jump stop was "two steps" and picking up a foot and putting it down again would be a third.

[TigerBball]

I think the reason this "jump stop" rule is so difficult is most of us were taught a jump stop as you step with one foot, pick up your dribble, land on two, and now you can choose to pivot with either foot.

Most coaches consider that action the jump stop.

I did not realize that this was not a jump stop according to the rules until a few years ago when I read the rule book.

Now when I teach these two moves, I tell my players there are really two types of jump stops, technically by the rules this is not true, but I have not found a good name for the mis labeled jump stop, so I stick with it. Old habits you know.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by TigerBball
I think the reason this "jump stop" rule is so difficult is most of us were taught a jump stop as you step with one foot, pick up your dribble, land on two, and now you can choose to pivot with either foot.

Most coaches consider that action the jump stop.

I know. But it's traveling if you end the dribble with the one foot still on the floor.

when I teach these two moves, I tell my players there are really two types of jump stops, technically by the rules this is not true, but I have not found a good name for the mis labeled jump stop, so I stick with it. Old habits you know.

Actually, there are two types of jump stops. Read article 2 of the rule that ref18 cited above.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 31st, 2005 at 06:45 PM]

[TigerBball]

OK, now I am really confused BktBallRef. If you step with one foot, then end your dribble, then land on two, I thought you could pivot.

If you end your dribble, step with one foot, land on two, you can't pivot.

but in your post you said the first action was a travel.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, now I am really confused BktBallRef. If you step with one foot, then end your dribble, then land on two, I thought you could pivot.

***most of the time I think the jump stop is done off of two feet (the jump) even though those two feet aren't together when the dribbler jumps. When you do a legal jump stop there is no pivot. Think about this: if there was a pivot you could then pick that pivot up and shoot before a try. So you could jump stop, step forward with a pivot, take the pivot off of the floor and shoot before putting it down. That would be like a normal layup motion with a jump stop before it. That is a lot of ground that could be covered!

If you end your dribble, step with one foot, land on two, you can't pivot.

***If you do this then you have traveled since you lifted your pivot and put it back down.

but in your post you said the first action was a travel.

*** mark my comments. How do you bold or change colors?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by TigerBball
OK, now I am really confused BktBallRef. If you step with one foot, then end your dribble, then land on two, I thought you could pivot.

No, you can't.

4-43-2b
If one foot is on the floor:

1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

If you end your dribble, step with one foot, land on two, you can't pivot.

but in your post you said the first action was a travel.

You have to end you dribble with the foot on the floor, jump and land with both feet simultaneously. And you still cannot pivot.

[socalreff]

The pivot move described above is the classic "up and under." It is one of the many reasons why I stopped doing men's games and do women's games. On the men's side this gets called 95% of the time because it looks "funny" whereas it rarely gets called on the women's side because it is completely legal. It was one of my favorite moves as a player until I got to college where I had to cut it out of my game since it suddenly became a travel. Too frustrating!!!!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

No, you can't.

4-43-2b
If one foot is on the floor:

1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

You have to end you dribble with the foot on the floor, jump and land with both feet simultaneously. And you still cannot pivot.

Hence the confusion. BBR is both right and wrong depending on which jumpstop is being discussed. I know he knows this rule and is ruling on the one where the dribble is picked up with one foot on the ground...no pivot allowed after the jump/landing. However, I believe the question is meaning to imply that the dribbler strides off of one foot, catches the dribble, and lands on both feet. In that case, a choice of pivots is allowed.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 1st, 2005 at 06:42 PM]