Q from 1st Year: Bodies on the floor under the basket.

[ca_rumperee]

I think I had a lightbulb turn on last night.

Had this last night.

Player A1 drives from corner, B1 tries to draw charge, falls on the floor under the basket. No call from me -- incidental contact.

A2 grabs rebound and almost lands on prone player B1. Misses direct landing, but the steps on him somewhat in an effort to avoid him. A2 is in a great position for a putback at this point.

I blow whistle to end play and caucus with my partner. (I did not feel that play was safe to continue).

We got together and called a block by prone player B1 on rebounder A2 and awarded ball to A on the endline.

I'm not sure my partner completely understood me when I explained that I stopped play because I felt it was unsafe and I needed to know how we should proceed. I would think now, upon reflection, that I could stop play there and just award the ball to A on the endline for being in possession of the ball when I stopped play deeming it unsafe.

Anyways, the lightbulb turning on for me would be this: while I don't always have to have a call one way or the other on a block/charge, I need to have a call one way or the other on a block/charge in a highly congested area. If I had made a call one way or the other on the first play, the world would have been a better place.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Anyways, the lightbulb turning on for me would be this: while I don't always have to have a call one way or the other on a block/charge, I need to have a call one way or the other on a block/charge in a highly congested area. If I had made a call one way or the other on the first play, the world would have been a better place.

How congested an area is should have no impact on a block/charge call or no-call, IMO. In fact, I think you handled this correctly, and a block on the player prone on the floor is the correct call, also IMO.

You do need to look for potentially dangerous situations, but basketball is a contact sport and many times players end up on the floor. You can't just blow every play dead when someone may get stepped on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

We got together and called a block by prone player B1 on rebounder A2 and awarded ball to A on the endline.

Read rule 4-23-1 --specifically the part that says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court providing such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."-- and let me know if you've changed your mind.

Unless A2 was in the air on the put-back and B2 moved under him, I don't see where you have rules justification to call a foul on B2. What rule did you use?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

You do need to look for potentially dangerous situations, but basketball is a contact sport and many times players end up on the floor. You can't just blow every play dead when someone may get stepped on.

That I agree with.

[Junker]

It sounds like you handled this play ok, but judging from a few of your posts, you seem to be stopping play on occasion and then deciding why you stopped it. I understand you want to get it right and you are new to this, but you are going to get yourself in trouble at some point using this method. If you aren't sure, don't blow your whistle.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Read rule 4-23-1 --specifically the part that says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court providing such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."-- and let me know if you've changed your mind.

Unless A2 was in the air on the put-back and B2 moved under him, I don't see where you have rules justification to call a foul on B2. What rule did you use?

btw he had the foul right by ncaa interpretation. NCAA view is that a player down on the floor does not have a legitimate defensive position and is responsible for contact.

I kinda like this better than the fed interp.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Read rule 4-23-1 --specifically the part that says "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court providing such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."-- and let me know if you've changed your mind.

Unless A2 was in the air on the put-back and B2 moved under him, I don't see where you have rules justification to call a foul on B2. What rule did you use?

Wait a second...I agree that B2 may not have illegally contacted A2 getting to his prone position on the floor in this scenario but....

Does LGP come into play on this? If B2 does not have LGP (in this case, laying on the court) and there is contact with the shooter A2 during his natural shooting motion that causes him to have contact with B2 wouldn't we have justification to call a foul on B2 for blocking? I can't very well call a PC on this cause B2 is on the floor and not in LGP...

As I'm playing this in my mind, I'm wondering if a no call or block is correct. It's really one you have to see happen but I am inclined to have a no call here if the contact between the two players is merely A2 accidentally stepping on B2....

Then that brings the question, what if A2 STOMPS on him?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Junker

It sounds like you handled this play ok, but judging from a few of your posts, you seem to be stopping play on occasion and then deciding why you stopped it. I understand you want to get it right and you are new to this, but you are going to get yourself in trouble at some point using this method. If you aren't sure, don't blow your whistle.

Well you are right about the "sometimes blowing...". I'll admit to that and looking to be better about it.

In this situation, I had a play where I've got one player literally stepping on a prone player. All of my instincts (hey, you've gotta love 1st year 'instincts'!) told me that the play had to stop, now.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Well you are right about the "sometimes blowing...". I'll admit to that and looking to be better about it.

In this situation, I had a play where I've got one player literally stepping on a prone player. All of my instincts (hey, you've gotta love 1st year 'instincts'!) told me that the play had to stop, now.

My wife calls this a "stop the madness whistle". Usually applies to Girls Frosh games.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

btw he had the foul right by ncaa interpretation. NCAA view is that a player down on the floor does not have a legitimate defensive position and is responsible for contact.

I kinda like this better than the fed interp.

Hmmm...this is what I was agreeing with - I got the interps mixed up. I was thinking the Fed interp was that this was a foul, and the NCAA interp was that it wasn't a foul. Thanks for the clarification.

So...in the OP - no whistle unless there's a travel?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Does LGP come into play on this? If B2 does not have LGP (in this case, laying on the court) and there is contact with the shooter A2 during his natural shooting motion that causes him to have contact with B2 wouldn't we have justification to call a foul on B2 for blocking? I can't very well call a PC on this cause B2 is on the floor and not in LGP...

No, LGP has got nothing to do with the call. Can a rebounder run into the back of an opponent? There's no LGP involved there either. Can a dribbler run into the back of an opponent that has taken a position with his back turned several steps in front of the dribbler? No LGP there either. Can anybody legally run into an opponent who has already taken a legal position on the court?

B2 may not have a LGP, but that doesn't mean that B2 isn't in a legal position. Under FED rules, there is no justification that I know of for calling a foul on B2 for blocking when B2 has attained a legal position on the court, even if that legal position is lying down.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Wait a second...I agree that B2 may not have illegally contacted A2 getting to his prone position on the floor in this scenario but....

Does LGP come into play on this? If B2 does not have LGP (in this case, laying on the court) and there is contact with the shooter A2 during his natural shooting motion that causes him to have contact with B2 wouldn't we have justification to call a foul on B2 for blocking? I can't very well call a PC on this cause B2 is on the floor and not in LGP...

As I'm playing this in my mind, I'm wondering if a no call or block is correct. It's really one you have to see happen but I am inclined to have a no call here if the contact between the two players is merely A2 accidentally stepping on B2....

Then that brings the question, what if A2 STOMPS on him?

LGP has nothing to do with this. LGP gives the defensive player additional rights (primarily the right to move obliquely). If the defensive player isn't moving, then LGP is not an issue.

On the OP, if A2 is in a great postion for a put-back, then I let the play continue.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Hmmm...this is what I was agreeing with - I got the interps mixed up. I was thinking the Fed interp was that this was a foul, and the NCAA interp was that it wasn't a foul. Thanks for the clarification.

So...in the OP - no whistle unless there's a travel?

Yep, under fed.

Or if someone's head gets stomped in and the blood makes the floor too slippery to continue. But do wait to see if there's a put back first.

edit to say the putback comment was made before I read Bob's post. great minds think alike!

[ILRef80]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Then that brings the question, what if A2 STOMPS on him?

This was the question that popped into my head. I think you have to have an intentional. It can't be a technical since it's a contact foul, so that's what I would go with.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

All of my instincts (hey, you've gotta love 1st year 'instincts'!) told me that the play had to stop, now.

Unfortunately your instincts didn't have rules backing. Let it play out. Just because there's bodies on the floor doesn't mean that a foul has been committed.