Blowout becomes a mess

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RCBSports

I thought if the Head Coach was ejected, he is gone; the assist coach is left in charge, but he is STILL the assist coach? We is not allowed to get up and all that other crap that goes with it as being an assist.

We had a problem like that not too long ago where the head coach was ejected in the first quarter and the asst. coach had to finish the game, but he couldn't stand or anything because he was the asst?

Let me know if I am right or wrong or way off topic?!?

Huh?

In most "coaching box" states, the HC is seatbelted after receiving a direct or indirect technical foul. So if the HC got ejected, someone has to fill the role, but he doesn't get a coaching box because the technical foul earlier removed the box for the team for the game. That is, unless your state has gone off in a different direction from the NFHS.

[RCBSports]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Huh?

In most "coaching box" states, the HC is seatbelted after receiving a direct or indirect technical foul. So if the HC got ejected, someone has to fill the role, but he doesn't get a coaching box because the technical foul earlier removed the box for the team for the game. That is, unless your state has gone off in a different direction from the NFHS.

It wouldn't surprise me if my state has. But I know after the first T they are benched, the second they are gone. But I knew the asst coach took over, but he was still benched b/c he is still asst but just having to finish the game. I dunno, I will contact one of our board members and see what he has to say.

Thanks

[Texas Aggie]

Mark: agree with just about everything you wrote up until the forfeit part. Even under this sitch, don't. Travesty and refusal to play are about (there may be a few others -- like threats, but not this) the only things that are going to lead to an actual forfeit. The remedy here is the game report.

Don't compound a bad situation that you have nothing to do with by making yourself a target for criticism. You can justify all your calls, even if the judgment was questionable. If you forfeit this game, the coaches now have the "ability" to dodge any discussion of their behavior by bringing this up, and SOMEONE, justified or not, will listen. In other words, don't stretch a forfeit -- you either have good grounds for it, or you don't do it. If you have to ask, don't.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Mark: agree with just about everything you wrote up until the forfeit part. Even under this sitch, don't. Travesty and refusal to play are about (there may be a few others -- like threats, but not this) the only things that are going to lead to an actual forfeit. The remedy here is the game report.

Don't compound a bad situation that you have nothing to do with by making yourself a target for criticism. You can justify all your calls, even if the judgment was questionable. If you forfeit this game, the coaches now have the "ability" to dodge any discussion of their behavior by bringing this up, and SOMEONE, justified or not, will listen. In other words, don't stretch a forfeit -- you either have good grounds for it, or you don't do it. If you have to ask, don't.

Texas:

I probably should have written my feelings more clearly. The R has the final authority as to whether to forfeit a game or not to forfeit a game. If I am the R, while I have the final authority, unless I am working with a real moron, I will not take that action unilaterally. I will get together with my partners and we will discuss whether we need to forfeit the game or not, that is what I meant by polling my partners. But acting in the way the coaches did in this game surely comes close to being a travesty. Their conduct was completely unacceptable.

Item (1): I don't understand this position. Why in Hades name would I care about any criticism I receive. Do you think I really care what some Howler Monkey Coach thinks or any irrational fan or an idiot sports reporter thinks.

Item (2): This statement makes no sense. Who made the forfeiture possible? Why our friendly Howler Monkey Coaches, thats who. The only people who are going to have any sympathy to the coaches are the irrational fans and idiot sports reporters.

If you are afraid of criticism from Howler Monkey Coaches, irrational fans, and/or idiot sports reporters, then my advice to you is to find another advocation because sports officiating is not for you.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CJRef

Girls Varsity. Team A is up by 20, wants an intentional called with 8 seconds left, doesn't get it. Trail is right in front of A's bench. Trail hears a male voice yell "You're un****ing believable" from the bench. Could not have been the players (girls), trainer or head coach (women), no spectators behind the bench, so it leaves one the three male assistants. Trail spins around instantly but all three have their poker faces on. Trail blows whistle, walks to table and announces a T on the head coach, she then loses it. By now the lead is over at the table to get him out of there but before he does, head coach says "How can you call that on me, I didn't say it" to which the trail tells the head coach she's in charge of the bench, that's why she picked it up. As that is happening, one of the assistants gets in the way and says "get this dumbass (unfortunately I'm pretty sure he was referring to my partner) out of here". I'm now over in the area while trying to keep on eye on the players. As my partners are coming to meet with me away from the bench, I hear another one of the assistants yell directly at us "What a f***ing joke". We discuss that we now have two more technicals and an ejection. I go to report what we have, the bench all of a sudden calmed down, coach leaves, we shoot the free throws and finish the game.

The whole thing took us by surprise since they hadn't said a word the entire game and the foul they wanted was for an accidental jersey grab.
Afterwards we discussed the situation at length and discussed variations and other questions. What is the most effective way to deal with a bench issue that merits a technical but cannot be attributed to an individual? Would you have a flagrant for the original comment?

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

[SmokeEater]

You can be almost assured the AC who dropped the second F bomb probably dropped the first as well. At least that has been my experience.

[CJRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.

[Nevadaref]

My responses in Red.

Originally Posted by CJRef

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.
I believe that you are missing my point. I'm not talking about game management or stopping the clock. I'm telling you that grabbing a handful of an opponent's jersey is flat-out an intentional personal foul.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.
Understandable and a good thought.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).
Very chicken of the R. I wonder what your assignor thinks of his unwillingness to assess proper penalties to those who misbehave. The excuse of having to do paperwork had better be a joke. He wasn't risking tossing the whole bench. The bench personnel's behavior put them all at risk of being run.

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.
The situation didn't warrant a forfeit. I agree. However, you needed to get the people whose behavior was totally unacceptable out of there and if that meant every adult on the bench, then so be it. If that means a forfeit in your state, then that's the way it goes as well. Never ignore unsporting behavior. Never fail to punish unsporting behavior of which you are aware.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.
Yep, and I can now assure you that had you instructed the Head Coach to remove the offending AC even though you couldn't pinpoint him, she would have. Kudos to the school admin for stepping up and doing the right thing in the aftermath.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.
That's because there isn't one. We've discussed this issue before on this very forum too. Perhaps the NFHS committee will finally give us something this summer. There is such a rule for NFHS soccer. Given that the NFHS has previously stated that it intends for all of it's sports to be conducted in the same manner regarding issues such as sportsmanship and player safety, I wouldn't be surprised to see bench conduct rules become uniform throughout all NFHS sports.

[jdw3018]

Nevada, in response to your post above - if the foul was for illegal contact prior to the grabbing of the jersey, then wouldn't an IF have been the wrong call? That seems to be what he indicated in his post - that the foul was for contact prior to the grabbing, which means the jersey grab was dead ball contact...

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by CJRef

Girls Varsity. Team A is up by 20, wants an intentional called with 8 seconds left, doesn't get it. Trail is right in front of A's bench. Trail hears a male voice yell "You're un****ing believable" from the bench. Could not have been the players (girls), trainer or head coach (women), no spectators behind the bench, so it leaves one the three male assistants. Trail spins around instantly but all three have their poker faces on. Trail blows whistle, walks to table and announces a T on the head coach, she then loses it. By now the lead is over at the table to get him out of there but before he does, head coach says "How can you call that on me, I didn't say it" to which the trail tells the head coach she's in charge of the bench, that's why she picked it up. As that is happening, one of the assistants gets in the way and says "get this dumbass (unfortunately I'm pretty sure he was referring to my partner) out of here". I'm now over in the area while trying to keep on eye on the players. As my partners are coming to meet with me away from the bench, I hear another one of the assistants yell directly at us "What a f***ing joke". We discuss that we now have two more technicals and an ejection. I go to report what we have, the bench all of a sudden calmed down, coach leaves, we shoot the free throws and finish the game.

The whole thing took us by surprise since they hadn't said a word the entire game and the foul they wanted was for an accidental jersey grab.
Afterwards we discussed the situation at length and discussed variations and other questions. What is the most effective way to deal with a bench issue that merits a technical but cannot be attributed to an individual? Would you have a flagrant for the original comment?

An ejection is in order. However, ejecting the Head Coach is an injustice because obviously she didn't do it. I would:

1. Ask the Head Coach who did it. If she didn't know. Check with the Table they might be able to point you in the right direction..

2.I would get the three Asst. Coaches together (if I'm 100% certain one of them is the culprit) and ask the guilty one to fess up.

3. If the offender doesn't step forward I would tell them I'm going to pick one and he will be the one ejected. Hopefully peer pressure will cause the guilty one to step forward.

4. If not I pick one at random and go from there.

I'm glad I wasn't there.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

An ejection is in order. However, ejecting the Head Coach is an injustice because obviously she didn't do it. I would:

1. Ask the Head Coach who did it. If she didn't know. Check with the Table they might be able to point you in the right direction..

2.I would get the three Asst. Coaches together (if I'm 100% certain one of them is the culprit) and ask the guilty one to fess up.

3. If the offender doesn't step forward I would tell them I'm going to pick one and he will be the one ejected. Hopefully peer pressure will cause the guilty one to step forward.

4. If not I pick one at random and go from there.

I'm glad I wasn't there.

So in order to give "justice" to the head coach we're going to take a chance on doing an injustice to a possibly not guilty Assistiant coach ?

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

So in order to give "justice" to the head coach we're going to take a chance on doing an injustice to a possibly not guilty Assistiant coach ?

So you're going to dump the Head Coach knowing that she's not the culprit. That's probably what caused the sh**house in the first place. In all probability one of the assistants will fess up. If they don't... oh well.

[Adam]

The HC wasn't dumped until the third bench T (one direct, and two indirects.)

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

So you're going to dump the Head Coach knowing that she's not the culprit. That's probably what caused the sh**house in the first place. In all probability one of the assistants will fess up. If they don't... oh well.

Well the HC is responsible for the bench personnel. The bench personnel aren't responsible for the HC.

I've read the OP several times and here is what I "get" or don't get.

1st T on bench-no dumping of coach-seatbelted.
2nd T on bench-
3rd T on bench-coach leaves now.


So if I am reading this right it doesn't matter who got charged with the 1st T cause we now have 3 and the coach is done.

If I'm wrong about this I am open to being educated.

I don't think I'm going to spend alot of time going Columbo on who said what .

[Texas Aggie]

Why in Hades name would I care about any criticism I receive.

I'm talking about criticism from your assignor, board, state association, etc., and I'm a little surprised you would think I meant anyone else. In other words, criticism that makes a difference in your schedule, advancement, playoff game assignments, etc. Forfeiture is such a drastic action that its one of those things that has to be an absolute no brainer, or you are going to get yourself is a boatload of trouble. At least, where I am, you will.

I realize the coaches' actions are what lead to your bringing up the forfeiture, but you are the one handing down the remedy and if it doesn't fit the crime, the focus CAN be put on you. All I'm saying is don't give them that chance. If you have minimal time left in any game and continuing play would not represent a security risk, then I'd be hard pressed to think of a situation where a forfeit is necessary. I'm sure there are things we can all come up with given time that would lead to one, but coaches cussing at refs doesn't come anywhere close.

If you knew me for even 5 minutes, you would never have been able to type straight enough to get that last paragraph out. My wife and close friends would die laughing hearing that.