Kicking Violation Philosophy

[jcarter]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Game played with Fed rules

Play: A1 has picked up her dribble near the division line. A2 is about 10 feet away (3.048 metres, Mark ), and also near the division line. B1 is about 4 feet from A1, between A1 and A2. A1 fakes a pass to A2. B1 then jumps in the air and both legs somewhat extended from the perpendicular to the floor. Once B1 is at her peak, A1 then passes the ball to A2. The ball hits B1's foot and "dies" right there for B1 to gain possession rather easily.

Ruling:

Agreed a have to see it but, If the ball hit the leg, play on. If the leg hit the ball, violation.

[mick]

Originally Posted by jcarter

Agreed a have to see it but, If the ball hit the leg, play on. If the leg hit the ball, violation.

...If the leg moved toward the ball....

[blindzebra]

Kicking violation for dummies:

Did the ball hit the leg = legal.

Did the leg hit the ball = illegal.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Kicking violation for dummies:

Did the ball hit the leg = legal.

Did the leg hit the ball = illegal.

This is good. We have something similar in baseball:

Fair ball hits dropped bat = legal, play on.

Dropped bat hits fair ball = illegal, batter out.

[JugglingReferee]

B1's foot was already in the spot. Her legs were extended outward at about a 45 degree angle from the vertical position. She did this leg extension in reaction to A1's fake. There was no positive movement towards the ball.

General Reply:

I was the covering official and I did not have a whistle; I let the play stand. Coach was fuming about the no-call and said that I needed to read the rulebook. I am 100% confident in my no-call, but it has been _years_ since I recall talking about this situation with anyone.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

B1's foot was already in the spot. Her legs were extended outward at about a 45 degree angle from the vertical position. She did this leg extension in reaction to A1's fake. There was no positive movement towards the ball.

General Reply:

I was the covering official and I did not have a whistle; I let the play stand. Coach was fuming about the no-call and said that I needed to read the rulebook. I am 100% confident in my no-call, but it has been _years_ since I recall talking about this situation with anyone.

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

Agreed. The intent was to stop a pass, whether that pass had been thrown yet or not. At least, that's the way I'm envisioning this play...

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Agreed. The intent was to stop a pass, whether that pass had been thrown yet or not. At least, that's the way I'm envisioning this play...

This is a big can of worms, I believe.

At any time a player is "stuck", you are saying that they can fake a pass, and if an opponent's leg moves at all, a subsequent pass to that leg's new position is now a kicked ball.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I've got a kick on this.....B1's leg was extended in a position to block an anticipated pass. Even if it was there before the pass was released, it was still intentional.

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

BZ:

It appears that you are starting to adopt my type of thinking.

Kicking the ball is a violatioin ONLY when the player INTENTIONALLY strikes the ball with his leg. Contact between the ball and the leg when the player's leg movement is a normal movement to maintain a defensive postion or to move from one positon to another is not a violation. If the player's leg is in contact with the floor when there is contact between the player's leg and ball, there cannot be a kicking violation.

If a defensive player throws his leg out at a ball to block a passing lane afther the ball has already left the thrower's hand and the contact between the ball and the defensive player's leg occurs before the defensive player's foot regains contact with floor: that is an example of a kicking violation.

But, if a defensive player throws his leg out at a ball to block a passing lane afther the ball has already left the thrower's hand and the contact between the ball and the defensive player's leg occurs after the defensive player's foot regains contact with floor: there is not kicking violation.

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Okay, what if B1 makes an overt move to get his leg in the passing lane but only does so by sticking his leg beyond his frame with his foot still on the floor, there is a delay and the pass then hits his leg.

You calling a kick on that too?

Maybe. A player can't intentionally use their leg/foot to contact the ball. Period. If I judge that the player has "used" it in such a manner (to actually block a pass or discourage a pass that eventually hits the leg), it's a kick....no matter if they had it there before the ball was thrown or not.

If that leg is in more of a typical guarding stance....knees slightly out...no kick.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

In my opinion if the ball comes to where the leg already is, it isn't intentionally striking the ball, it's a bad pass.

Ball comes to leg = legal.

Leg goes to ball = illegal.

Mostly, I agree....except for when the defender extends the leg with the purpose of taking away a passing lane with the leg (and not for moving themselves in that direction). The defender doesn't get to cover 2 extra feet of space with their legs if they can get them there before the ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Kicking violation for dummies:

Did the ball hit the leg = legal.

Did the leg hit the ball = illegal.

BZ:

"Did the leg hit the ball = illegal." Not quite. B1 is shuffling his/her feet to maintain a defensive position against A1. A1 attempts a bounce pass to A2. In the process of moving to maintain his/her defensive position B1's moving foot hits the ball. Legal play. The key to the kicking violation is INTENT. Did the player intend to strike ball with his/her foot. Without INTENT there can be no violation.

MTD, Sr.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The key to the kicking violation is INTENT. Did the player intend to strike ball with his/her foot. Without INTENT there can be no violation.

MTD, Sr.

Just some devil's advocate here: B's leg was extended purposely away from his/her body, with the intent being to use the extended/outstretched leg to deflect a thrown ball by A1. This happened, no?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Just some devil's advocate here: B's leg was extended purposely away from his/her body, with the intent being to use the extended/outstretched leg to deflect a thrown ball by A1. This happened, no?

Yup. That's the kicker. (Pun intended.) However, since A didn't release the ball, she cannot then throw the ball off B1's leg for a subsequent team B violation.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yup. That's the kicker. (Pun intended.) However, since A didn't release the ball, she cannot then throw the ball off B1's leg for a subsequent team B violation.

I've gotcha, JR. Definitely a tough sell, I'd imagine.