Q from a 1st year: Control?

[ca_rumperee]

Team B is in the bonus. In frontcourt, B1 passes to B2. A2 (in deny stance) steps in and bats ball towards his own basket. Before A2 touches the ball again, B2 grabs A2 from behind (as you might to prevent a layup).
I call a hold on B2, awarding A2 with a one-and-one. My thought was that this kid had made a controlling action by batting the ball. I don't know that I could define it as "initiating a dribble" or not, but he made a controlled 'batting' of the ball to an open part of the court. Control, or no?

[jdw3018]

In this scenario, the only way I could see calling it control would also require you to determine it a dribble. Otherwise the ball was muffed, and a muff isn't control...

[BktBallRef]

No. Batting the ball does not constitute control. Control is established by dribbling or holding a live ball inbounds. Batting the ball from the player in possession is not a dribble. You had a team control foul and shouldn't have shot FTs.

BTW, better to always use A as the offensive team and B as the defensive team. It's consistent with the case book, exams, NFHS interps, etc.

[ca_rumperee]

is, if A2 had recovered his batted ball, held it and dribbled would I call double dribble? No.

[Kelvin green]

Team control happens when you are dribbling or hlding a live ball... on a loose ball it remains in control of the team until the opponent gains control.

This is a play I would have to see, but given your description, it is hard to say. Dribble can start with a bat... However this could be just the defense knocking the ball away...If it was, it is a team control foul and not a common foul (where is the NBA loose ball foul when we need it?)

If there was a hold and grabs him from behind it sounds to me like an intentional foul might be as appropriate here as anything...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

is, if B2 had recovered his batted ball, held it and dribbled would I call double dribble? No.

See? You're confusing your A's and B's.

I assume you mean A2 all of which would mean it's still a team control foul.

[ca_rumperee]

I used the term 'batting' because the definition of dribble uses it:

4.15.1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hands(s)) or pushed the ball to the floor once or several times.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

See? You're confusing your A's and B's.

I assume you mean A2 all of which would mean it's still a team control foul.

mea culpa. I B corrected.... and will edit.

[grunewar]

"Before A2 touches the ball again, B2 grabs A2 from behind (as you might to prevent a layup)."

While I didn't see the play, seems by your description you could have called an intentional foul here.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I used the term 'batting' because the definition of dribble uses it:

4.15.1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hands(s)) or pushed the ball to the floor once or several times.

Keep reading down to Note 2 (at least in last year's book). It seems like the note applies to your paly and, as you have surmised, it was not team control.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I used the term 'batting' because the definition of dribble uses it:

4.15.1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hands(s)) or pushed the ball to the floor once or several times.

You quote the rule and ignore it as the same time.

A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control...

A defender is NOT in control of the ball, so when he bats it, it is not a dribble.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Team control happens when you are dribbling or holding a live ball...

Kelvin, just to be accurate, that's the definition of player control (and you have to add the word "inbounds" at the end). You are correct, however, that during a period of no team control, team control is established when a player gains player control. Remember, there is team control during a pass between teammates.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by grunewar

"Before A2 touches the ball again, B2 grabs A2 from behind (as you might to prevent a layup)."

While I didn't see the play, seems by your description you could have called an intentional foul here.

That's what I was thinking. Completely avoids the problem of player control.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

That's what I was thinking. Completely avoids the problem of player control.

Yep.

[ca_rumperee]

Back in the day, Celtics are playing. Someone drives the lane, but Russell swats the ball out towards Satch Sanders. Russell's 'controlled' rejection toward a teammate was common.

In the play I described, our denying defender clearly 'controlled' the ball (in the Bill Russell sense), but did not 'control' the ball in the rule book sense.

Word.