Pitt-Duke Double Whistle

[Mark Dexter]

This happened with about 16:15 left in the 2nd half.

A1 (Duke player) driving the lane, goes airborne, and gets hit on the arm by B1. While still airborne, A1 charges into B2, who has LGP.

The crew talked it over, and went with just the foul on B1. In NF, if we saw both fouls, wouldn't that be a false double foul? (I don't have this year's book.) Normally, we'd apply both penalties for a false double. In this case, though, since we had a PC foul, we'd charge B1 and A1 with fouls, not have any FTs, then give B the ball for a throw-in? Is that right?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

This happened with about 16:15 left in the 2nd half.

A1 (Duke player) driving the lane, goes airborne, and gets hit on the arm by B1. While still airborne, A1 charges into B2, who has LGP.

The crew talked it over, and went with just the foul on B1. In NF, if we saw both fouls, wouldn't that be a false double foul? (I don't have this year's book.) Normally, we'd apply both penalties for a false double. In this case, though, since we had a PC foul, we'd charge B1 and A1 with fouls, not have any FTs, then give B the ball for a throw-in? Is that right?

I heard them talking about this play, but didn't see it...NF I believe you are right we would call the foul on B1, then the PC foul on A1...A1 shoots two with the lane clear and and B gets the ball out of bounds..since the PC foul caused the ball to become dead, you could not count the basket if it went in.

I'll take a shot at NCAA...I thought it was the same in NCAA as far as charging both fouls, only difference being if the shot was released when A1 charged into B2, you would count the bucket if it went in, A1 would shoot 1 FT and B2 would shoot at the other end if B was in the bonus since this is not considered PC, just a push...if the ball did not go in, again A1 shoots two FT's and B2 shoots at the other end if in the bonus, otherwise B's ball at endline....if the shot was not released when A1 charged into B2, then you have the same situation as NF, A1 shoots two with lane clear, charge a PC foul to A1, B's ball at endline following A1's FT's...

Not sure why they would just charge the initial foul and not the subsequent push?

[mick]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I heard them talking about this play, but didn't see it...NF I believe you are right we would call the foul on B1, then the PC foul on A1...A1 shoots two with the lane clear and and B gets the ball out of bounds..since the PC foul caused the ball to become dead, you could not count the basket if it went in.

I'll take a shot at NCAA...I thought it was the same in NCAA as far as charging both fouls, only difference being if the shot was released when A1 charged into B2, you would count the bucket if it went in, A1 would shoot 1 FT and B2 would shoot at the other end if B was in the bonus since this is not considered PC, just a push...if the ball did not go in, again A1 shoots two FT's and B2 shoots at the other end if in the bonus, otherwise B's ball at endline....if the shot was not released when A1 charged into B2, then you have the same situation as NF, A1 shoots two with lane clear, charge a PC foul to A1, B's ball at endline following A1's FT's...

Not sure why they would just charge the initial foul and not the subsequent push?

Maybe the foul by B1 caused the foul by A1 ?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

This happened with about 16:15 left in the 2nd half.

A1 (Duke player) driving the lane, goes airborne, and gets hit on the arm by B1. While still airborne, A1 charges into B2, who has LGP.

The crew talked it over, and went with just the foul on B1. In NF, if we saw both fouls, wouldn't that be a false double foul? (I don't have this year's book.) Normally, we'd apply both penalties for a false double. In this case, though, since we had a PC foul, we'd charge B1 and A1 with fouls, not have any FTs, then give B the ball for a throw-in? Is that right?

I called this once in a Fed game. False double. Report both fouls, A1 does shoot 2 shots, but cancel the basket if it goes in.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mick

Maybe the foul by B1 caused the foul by A1 ?

Outstanding point, mick.

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I called this once in a Fed game. False double. Report both fouls, A1 does shoot 2 shots, but cancel the basket if it goes in. B2 might shoot for the bonus, or B gets the throw-in.

I'm wondering why B2 might get bonus shots if A1's foul was PC. Does the false double change the way a PC is handled?

[Nevadaref]

In an NFHS game he wouldn't. However, in an NCAA mens contest, the defender would be awarded the bonus and the basket would count if the ball had been released prior to the crash.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

I'm wondering why B2 might get bonus shots if A1's foul was PC. Does the false double change the way a PC is handled?

My bad.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by mick

Maybe the foul by B1 caused the foul by A1 ?

That's an interesting point, but is that a judgement that we are allowed to make? Never heard that one before....so you would be saying basically that A1 would have avoided B2 if not hit by B1....very interesting...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

That's an interesting point, but is that a judgement that we are allowed to make? Never heard that one before....so you would be saying basically that A1 would have avoided B2 if not hit by B1....very interesting...

This is usually the decision when a player is pushed (in which case I think it has merit), not when he is slapped on the arm (when I don't buy it).

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is usually the decision when a player is pushed (in which case I think it has merit), not when he is slapped on the arm (when I don't buy it).

Agreed that is what I was thinking...if B1 pushes A1 into B2 who has LGP, you can't exactly call a PC foul on A1...but in this case I thought it was more of a slap from what they were saying which is a tough sell...wish I would have seen the play..

[mick]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Agreed that is what I was thinking...if B1 pushes A1 into B2 who has LGP, you can't exactly call a PC foul on A1...but in this case I thought it was more of a slap from what they were saying which is a tough sell...wish I would have seen the play..

Then there is the fact that there is no airborne shooter in Men's hoops, so when B1 was penalized, all contact after that was incidental.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by mick

Then there is the fact that there is no airborne shooter in Men's hoops, so when B1 was penalized, all contact after that was incidental.

? There is an airborne shooter still, the foul by B1 doesn't cause the ball to become dead...it's just the administration of the penalties is different in NCAAM with the foul being a push vs. PC if A1 releases the ball before the contact...you should still assess the foul, it's just the administration of the penalty that is different NCAAM vs. NF...in my example if B2 hadn't obtained LGP, you could have a multiple foul situation with fouls on both B1 & B2...now THAT I have never seen called, but the ball certainly doesn't become dead on the foul by B1...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

Then there is the fact that there is no airborne shooter in Men's hoops, so when B1 was penalized, all contact after that was incidental.

The ball isn't dead on the whistle for B1's foul, Mick. Don't we penalize illegal contact normally until the ball becomes dead under both FED and NCAA rules?

[grunewar]

Incidentally, if you didn't get to see this game, it was one of the better College games I've seen all yr! Pitt fought back from a huge deficit and both team's players hit some unbelievably clutch shots in the last few minutes. Game see sawed back and forth. My boys and I were glued to the set and a screaming! March atmosphere in Dec? It was great!