T or not??

[canuckref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

Through this forum I've seem we all have a different tolerance for behavior that is unsporting. If a coach asked if I was sure which team is inbounding the ball in a respectful manner, I would reassure him/her that I had the correct team. As an official I would never say to a coach: you sure your team knows how to inbound a ball? that would be disrespectful and obnoxious. If a coach is trying to make me or my partner look bad ...thats unsporting behavior. I don't give passes to coaches for being sarcastic, disrespectful or unsporting. I guess my tolerance leans to zero. I am happy to say I have the respect of most all coaches I ref based on a consistent standard of behavioral expectations. I am sure many don't like it, but they do respect it. It also saves me a ton of flak in games. I know I'm an ogre!

[REFVA]

had a foul the other day....Coach is busting on me on the way to report..I lose track of who the foul is on.....

I bet you won't forget that again!

Whack, his behavior is not excused...

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

What a crock of spit.

Legitimate question? Are you freaking kidding?

The only legitimate question that coach could have asked was, "Can you just charge that as a team foul?"

Comments and remarks disguised as a question are not legitimate questions.

The length that some will go to avoid giving out a warranted T is disgusting...it really is no wonder why officials that uphold the rules of sportsmanship and expect coaches and players to abide by them have so much trouble, when officials allow coaches to run roughshod over them.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

How in the world can you even begin to consider what this coach said a "legitimate" question??? There is no way that coach was asking the question for clarification purposes...he was being a smart-a$$. Now if that doesn't cross your imaginary line in the sand, so be it...but please don't try to explain it as a "legitimate" question.

For the record, I probably wouldn't have T'd the coach in the original situation. My response would have been along the lines of "OK, I deserved that one. But that's the only shot you get to take at my crew tonight coach." And then away we go...

It's legitimate because he asked, are you sure it's blue's ball? You just forgot who fouled who less then 60 seconds ago. Yes it probably was to be a smart-a$$. But this official just had a momentary lapse of a fundamental referee mechanic, calling and reporting a foul? We've all been in this situation, so I'm speaking on experience. If the coach was riding me to a point that I forgot what just happened, and my partner can't help me out (he's probably thinking the same thing the coach is, what the heck you calling), then chances are I just might've called an iffy call. Again, I wasn't there, I am speaking on what I may have gone through early in my career. Now with all that said and the coach makes that question and comment to me, I'm commenting on it and moving on. I am not T'ing him up right there on that spot. Now if we've been up and down the court once or twice aftwards, and he's still on this same line of comments and questions, then it's a problem, and I will deal with it with my nice index to index T that I've worked so hard on perfecting..

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by REFVA

....had a foul the other day....Coach is busting on me on the way to report..I lose track of who the foul is on.....

I bet you won't forget that again!

Whack, his behavior is not excused...

If the coach is busting this officials balls so bad on the way to report, why not stop the coach right then and there, STOP sign up, and tell the coach no more! Then when you forget the darn # you have a frickin excuse. But to go from spot of the foul to the table and forget and blame the coach because he's yapping in your ear and you're letting him, is a poor excuse.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Wow.

This is an easy T call.

So what some are saying is that the official calls a foul and the behavior of the coach causes the official to lose focus and forget the number.

The coach then gets a free shot because the official "screws up"?

So the official should mess up not only the number...which the coach caused...and then screw up the blatantly insulting comment by ignoring it?

Geesh, no wonder those of us that do take care of business have to.

Ah, geeze, bz, why did you have to go and agree with me? Now I've got to have weeks and weeks of counselling...

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If the coach is busting this officials balls so bad on the way to report, why not stop the coach right then and there, STOP sign up, and tell the coach no more! Then when you forget the darn # you have a frickin excuse.

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

But to go from spot of the foul to the table and forget and blame the coach because he's yapping in your ear and you're letting him, is a poor excuse.

The official doesn't need an "excuse" to T the coach in this case. Coach earned it all by himself.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I guess that is another way of saying I'm going to ignore unsporting behavior because I need to grow a crop.

I like to laugh and joke with the best of them, but I'm not going to turn an unsporting matter into a laughing matter so I can say I've only given a coach X amount of Ts. Now I see how people call so few they can keep track. You shouldn't be so uptight about calling an earned technical foul. There is a difference between someone saying something to you when you mess up and being a jerk, maybe you should learn it.

Listen, I used to throw Ts out like they were candy, but I live in the real world. I am going to ask myself how much I contributed to the situation and use that in my analysis of whether a coach has one coming. Along with the question I always ask: Will this help this game?

I simply don't see it. Even if others could hear it, forgetting the number is what caused all of this and an official needs to know that there are times you take more from a coach as long as you can shut it down quickly.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What a crock of spit.

Legitimate question? Are you freaking kidding?

The only legitimate question that coach could have asked was, "Can you just charge that as a team foul?"

Comments and remarks disguised as a question are not legitimate questions.

The length that some will go to avoid giving out a warranted T is disgusting...it really is no wonder why officials that uphold the rules of sportsmanship and expect coaches and players to abide by them have so much trouble, when officials allow coaches to run roughshod over them.

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by MidMadness

I had a foul the other day....Coach is busting on me on the way to report..I lose track of who the foul is on.....I ask my partner for help...He can't help me ...I go to the table and no one there is for sure..So I tell them to mark it down as a team foul....I go to inbounds the ball near the teams bench that the foul was called....and I say Blue coming in....The coachs comment was ...Are you sure its blue coming in?? Surprised you can remember that???? Tor no t??? Thnaks

I suppose it depends on the manner in which it's said, but I can't see myself calling a T there. I might choose to make a self-depreciating joke like, "I learned colors in kindergarten coach but never did get too good at math." We look bad if we forget a number. I think we look even worse if we allow it to affect the game even more by adding to that mess with a T. JMO.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

Well said!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

It's legitimate ..

No it's not. You (and I) wouldn't T the coach for it, but it is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate question. It's a smart-a$$ comment from a pi$$ed-off coach.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I suppose it depends on the manner in which it's said, but I can't see myself calling a T there. I might choose to make a self-depreciating joke like, "I learned colors in kindergarten coach but never did get too good at math." We look bad if we forget a number. I think we look even worse if we allow it to affect the game even more by adding to that mess with a T. JMO.

I agree with this 100%. The real problem is, the descrption is second-hand. All this forum can do is talk about the different ways to handle it, and let OP make his own decision n the future. Nobody is right or wrong.

[Back In The Saddle]

Let's see here....

Official calls a foul. On the way to report the coach is out of control enough that his behavior causes/contributes to the official losing focus and forgetting the number. Official fixes the problem as best he can. Coach follows up his previous bad behavior with a snide remark, obviously questioning the official's ability.

Yeah, I can see why so many people here are so eager to excuse this coach's behavior. The official just screwed up so badly that the entire game is probably going to hell and it's all the official's fault. Who knows, they may just cancel basketball as an interscholastic sport because of this. So yeah, probably better give the coach one more pass to make sure he's got a complete set of them.

After all, we wouldn't want to actually address the coach's bad behavior. That would require somebody to "raise a crop." Hell there's enough apologists here that somebody could make a killing raising 80 acres of them and selling them here.

Oh, in case I have offended any of you...I was only ribbing you. Or was it just asking a legitimate question.

[tomegun]

Nope, it is legit. Some of you will make any excuse to keep from giving a T while some of you just don't think this scenario warrants a T. For the former group, I think you should think about your officiating career because you are doing the game no good. For the latter group, we can disagree, but I would wonder what is crossing the line with you.

I think "growing a crop" has officially became part of our vocabulary on the board. I tell you what, if I was a coach, I would have my way with some of the officials on here. I would be one of those coaches who might not say one thing the in itself is bad, but I would make things add up in such a way that you wouldn't realize how brutalized you were until you were half way home. I'm sorry, but I just don't think some officials get it. Like I said, some officials (like Rocky) get it, but don't choose to call it in this situation. Others just don't realize that there is about a 1% chance of this being delivered in a way that doesn't warrant a T. Oh, well.