AT&T to the rescue!!!

[mick]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I'm assuming the coach didn't know the rule as well.

Coach didn't have to know the rule, because "with B's fans screaming", he and Camron's partner knew all they had to know.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Since I had already said pretty much everything that could be said on the court, I didn't see any point in bringing it up again. He heard my statement of what happened and the rule. I had no need to "prove I was right" or get him to admit he was wrong.

No apology nor any concession of error. Didn't see that pushing for it would improve anything. Sometimes, it is better to just drop it and vent elsewhere so others can perhaps learn from it.

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games.

Sounds to me like that was made clear on the court and rehashing it postgame would only have led to worse things.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

Tom,
I happen to personally agree with you, but have also found that most HS officials don't want to hear it and that most HS associations frown upon their officials criticizing each other in that manner. If the association has an evaluator or commissioner, it is his job to handle the instruction and compliance. The assignor has the power to take away games or to adjust the level of the games for this kind of behavior both for the official who is screwing up the game and the official who berates his partner.

It would be better if it worked the way that you say, but I've learned otherwise and sadly believe that most HS officials aren't held to that standard.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Cute.

At this point it would be really hard for me to not tell him that I got this one, just trust me pard then blow the whistle declare an inadvertent whistle and give the ball back to A.

This action would never occur to me, so I need to clarify exactly how it would go. I'll salt it away for future use, after I'm sure I understand what you're saying.

Game progressing. Kid trapped as per OP. Ball bounces around, A1 dribbles out of trap, partner at endline blows whistle,**

do you give him time to signal? THen what?

You trot down to meet him, lean in and quietly say..... what? "You screwed the pooch, pard. Call it an IW, and I"ll get the ball back in a hurry."

Or just yell down to him, "I got it pard!!" Then, "Coach, it was an IW, we're giving it back to A. Here we go" and hustle off. Isn't that overriding the partner? Which is never okay?

[rockyroad]

I think I would have hit the whistle, run over to him and said "Hey, that ball got knocked out of his hands by the defender, so his second dribble was legal. You couldn't see that from where you were at, so I've got this one for you." Then simply turned to the table/coaches and signalled it was A's ball - if coach wants an explanation, I'd give him the same thing I told my partner...

No long discussion with him/her. No argument about the rule...just step in, state what you've got and put the ball in play. If they want to rehash it after the game, great - I'll let them know exactly what I thought of that call and them making it from where they were at. This is one of those times where protecting the game is more important than worrying about hurting my partners feelings.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Isn't that overriding the partner? Which is never okay?

Seems to me Camron's partner was the one doing the over riding on this play. All I'm suggesting is I wouldn't let him do that.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Isn't that overriding the partner? Which is never okay?

Says who???

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Says who???

I'm just thinking about all the advice to go quietly to the partner, give information and let the partner decide whether or not to change the call. I think you're saying that when I'm 100% sure that the partner just jumped under the train and pulled me with him, I can "fix" it for the good of the game, if I do it correctly. Would you say that's appropriate once a season or less? Shouldn't be undertaken lightly? Absolutely not for the faint of heart?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'm just thinking about all the advice to go quietly to the partner, give information and let the partner decide whether or not to change the call. I think you're saying that when I'm 100% sure that the partner just jumped under the train and pulled me with him, I can "fix" it for the good of the game, if I do it correctly. Would you say that's appropriate once a season or less? Shouldn't be undertaken lightly? Absolutely not for the faint of heart?

I would say "yes" to all of your questions. Hopefully it never happens, but if it does, why let the partner screw it up and just stand there? Absolutely not to be taken lightly, but I would rather have my partner be mad at me than the assignor/supervisor who calls and asks "Why didn't you handle this?"

[Indianaref]

Hopefully you don't have to do another game with this guy. If you do, be the R, the whole pregame discuss only Rule 4-15, and PCA!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Sounds to me like that was made clear on the court and rehashing it postgame would only have led to worse things.

It wasn't made clear, or clear enough, if the call stayed the way it was. Rocky says some good stuff in a post above; protect the game. The wrong call was made by the wrong person because the calling official had no business calling it anyway. This wasn't a game saving play, a play that was obviously missed or a non-basketball play. Using verbage like that and getting an official to understand it keeps these situations from becoming a common occurance.
Sure, just leaving the gym will keep you out of harm's way, maybe only temporarily, but what about the game? I may be describing it in a more harsh way than it would actually be. I don't see nothing wrong with solving a rule dispute at the appropriate time. Blowing rules is how many of us have learned (the hard way).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You dropped it and now he could do the same things: blow a rule and continue to call all over the court. How will that help the game?
It is probably just me, but doing what is right is not always easy. He needs to know he screwed up so he doesn't continue to screw up games. Your association's reputation is at stake, the integrity of the game is at stake and the integrity of every crew he is a part of is at stake. Who said part of being a good partner is only telling officials what they want to hear?

You could have least said, "You're not getting any of my check so you might as well let me call in my area and earn it."

I did, at the spot, tell him what the rule was. He understood what I was saying....just unwilling to overturn his call.

And note that this was the ONLY incident of him calling in my primary. He is NOT typically a ball watcher....but just once is all it takes to get one wrong....backing up the NBA's claims that calling out of your primary tends to be wrong far more than right.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I think I would have hit the whistle, run over to him and said "Hey, that ball got knocked out of his hands by the defender, so his second dribble was legal. You couldn't see that from where you were at, so I've got this one for you." Then simply turned to the table/coaches and signalled it was A's ball - if coach wants an explanation, I'd give him the same thing I told my partner...

No long discussion with him/her. No argument about the rule...just step in, state what you've got and put the ball in play. If they want to rehash it after the game, great - I'll let them know exactly what I thought of that call and them making it from where they were at. This is one of those times where protecting the game is more important than worrying about hurting my partners feelings.

Now that's an interesting take. I have never considered that angle. I think the ability to pull that tactic off would depend on the partner. Not sure that it would have worked well on this one. Plus, I was a bit stunned at the call, it sort of froze me for a few seconds. It threw me for such a loop that I didn't fell I was "in the game" or 2-3 more trips up and down the court.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now that's an interesting take. I have never considered that angle. I think the ability to pull that tactic off would depend on the partner. Not sure that it would have worked well on this one. Plus, I was a bit stunned at the call, it sort of froze me for a few seconds. It threw me for such a loop that I didn't fell I was "in the game" or 2-3 more trips up and down the court.

Camron, I"m dying to know who it was. And I"m on leave of absence this year, so I'll never tell anyone else. Won't even SEE anyone else. Couldn't you e-mail me and let me know?