Agree or not??

[sfd]

In my second year now and having a blast. Mostly V and JV action in a basketball happy area. Like others, I have seen the game slow down around me more this year, and it keeps just getting better.

So, my state has now added something I can't quite agree with (not that they asked). I wanted to see if it was my inexperience or if anybody else agreed with me to disagree with my state (or maybe there are other states like this for the HS level)

The first ejection for a team (bench Personnel or player) is a fine of $300.
The second in a game is $500.
The third is $750.

It's not the 2nd and 3rd that bother, a game should never be that out of control. The first one is sometimes hard for me to accept. Although I have noticed coaches will quickly pull their players out who tend to be 'emotional' and I like that, but I am reluctant to strickly enforce this to the coaches.
While they may truely deserve the first T they get from me, and then they have lost their box. I often see coaches seatbelted get caught up in a tight game and hop up, out of habit no doubt, to instruct their team. Usually a glimpse can remind them, but understandably, not always.

Now, if they were to get up to say ONE WORD to me during a live ball, that's it, goodnight coach. But I hate to punish a school (the place kids go to get an education) for the other situation.

I think some schools have told coaches they will not absorb this cost and place this burden on the offender, but from my understanding, the state holds the school responsible. Any thoughts?

[Mregor]

As an official, if the money goes to the officials I'm all for it. As a property tax payer, I'd be against it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mregor

As an official, if the money goes to the officials I'm all for it. As a property tax payer, I'd be against it.

Kinda like bounty hunting. I see Clint Eastwood and Lee Van Cleef wearing stripes.

[armymanjones]

I would not want to be the judge and jury. I would prefer the school board evaluate the ejection and levy the fine accordingly instead of it being automatic and the official being put on the spot. If the coach or player is tossed it should be reviewed and fined for severity if deemed necessary. Just my two pennys worth.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I really don't care what kind of fines the StateHSAA levies against a school for ejections. That is not our concerns as officials. Officiate the game per the rules and don't worry about the StateHSAA does to the schools.

MTD, Sr.

[sfd]

Originally Posted by armymanjones

I would not want to be the judge and jury. I would prefer the school board evaluate the ejection and levy the fine accordingly instead of it being automatic and the official being put on the spot. If the coach or player is tossed it should be reviewed and fined for severity if deemed necessary. Just my two pennys worth.

The way I see it worded, they don't really say there is an evalution of the severity. I would like to think there is. I trust in my judgement, but realize there are still officials out there who have less judgement when it comes to coaches.


I do enforce the rules, but find myself thinking its going to take a little more to get that second T. I have also heard other officials say they aren't going to eject a coach for anything less than a severe infraction. I only want it to be consistant.

Overall, I am happy with the state. However, I hope they clarify this in the future.

It is also a POI about any foul language during a game. We have been told if an evaluator hears any cursing during a game without action from the official, that official will be suspended. Hard to swallow, being as you maybe can't tell where it comes from, and hence don't know who to penalize. And I certainly don't believe foul language should ever be heard in the bleachers, but they are putting alot (more) pressure on us with such strict guidelines. I'm not going to listen to it (cursing) but sometimes don't hear a V level player saying something under his breath in disgust of himself. Many times I think to myself "*****, I missed that one" and might even would say it were it not for the whistle in my mouth.

[texaspaul]

Never tossed a coach, but I did toss a fan that came out of the stands during halftime to give me and my partner an ear full.

This was early 90's. In Texas, you had to write a full report (very detailed) of the whole incident. This was after you made the phone call and left a somewhat detailed message. After a week of receiving phone calls from the School, UIL, Texas Officials Association, and my local chapter, I will reserve tossing coaches and fans to when I have plenty of time on my hand for writing a novel.....

[sfd]

Originally Posted by Mregor

As an official, if the money goes to the officials I'm all for it. As a property tax payer, I'd be against it.

I don't know if you are serious, but that could pose a problem. If we look hard enough, we could find at least 2 ejections in any game. And at 300-750 smackers, some of us would look pretty hard.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mregor

As a property tax payer, I'd be against it.

Very well said. If the school paid these fines, and I found about this practice, I would be contacting the school board myself, or even politicians.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Very well said. If the school paid these fines, and I found about this practice, I would be contacting the school board myself, or even politicians.

And I hope that you would be contacting these people to demand that they punish the players for their unsportsmanlike behavior and fire the coaches that exhibit unsportsmanlike behavior.

MTD, Sr.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Mregor

As an official, if the money goes to the officials I'm all for it. As a property tax payer, I'd be against it.

I wonder how players and coaches behaviors would be affected if they KNEW the officials had some commission spiffs available to them if they DQ someone.

I say this and so far this year, players and coaches have been very easy to work with. I've only had to issue 2 warnings and both times the coaches changed their ways and the game got better.

[rainmaker]

I can see both sides of putting those kinds of fines. Are you saying if the coach is ejected? Or if a player is 2-T dqed? I'm uncertain which sitches you're describing. BUt I would say you should just call your game, and let them worry about the fines. We should only give the 2nd T when it's earned, but we shouldn't hold it if it IS earned. Just focus on keeping your line in a reasonable place without regard to the fines. And talk to your assignor, or another more experienced ref in your area to see what they suggest. THey can help you see what's expected, what's commonly allowed and what's commonly called in your locality.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by sfd

In my second year now and having a blast. Mostly V and JV action in a basketball happy area. Like others, I have seen the game slow down around me more this year, and it keeps just getting better.

So, my state has now added something I can't quite agree with (not that they asked). I wanted to see if it was my inexperience or if anybody else agreed with me to disagree with my state (or maybe there are other states like this for the HS level)

The first ejection for a team (bench Personnel or player) is a fine of $300.
The second in a game is $500.
The third is $750.

It's not the 2nd and 3rd that bother, a game should never be that out of control. The first one is sometimes hard for me to accept. Although I have noticed coaches will quickly pull their players out who tend to be 'emotional' and I like that, but I am reluctant to strickly enforce this to the coaches.
While they may truely deserve the first T they get from me, and then they have lost their box. I often see coaches seatbelted get caught up in a tight game and hop up, out of habit no doubt, to instruct their team. Usually a glimpse can remind them, but understandably, not always.

Now, if they were to get up to say ONE WORD to me during a live ball, that's it, goodnight coach. But I hate to punish a school (the place kids go to get an education) for the other situation.

I think some schools have told coaches they will not absorb this cost and place this burden on the offender, but from my understanding, the state holds the school responsible. Any thoughts?

My biggest concern is that it may make officials more reluctant to toss a player or bench personnel that need to be tossed.

I also have a problem with a fine related to a player on the court doing something emotional but flagrant. Should the school have to pay $300 because a player in the heat of a scrum did something to get tossed?

[sfd]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

My biggest concern is that it may make officials more reluctant to toss a player or bench personnel that need to be tossed.

I also have a problem with a fine related to a player on the court doing something emotional but flagrant. Should the school have to pay $300 because a player in the heat of a scrum did something to get tossed?

This is how I feel as well. And as I said, several officials have changed what it takes for them to give that second T.

I also want to feel like I can enforce the rules without hurting someone, or a school, financially.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

My biggest concern is that it may make officials more reluctant to toss a player or bench personnel that need to be tossed.

I also have a problem with a fine related to a player on the court doing something emotional but flagrant. Should the school have to pay $300 because a player in the heat of a scrum did something to get tossed?

Why do you have a problem if a StateHSAA fines schools for bad behavior? How a StateHSAA disciplines its member schools over bad behavior is not the concern of a game official. Officiate the game per the rules, period!

A StateHSAA has these rules in place to punish schools for bad behavior. Once an official starts to factor in what a StateHSAA is going to do to the school then the official is no longer doing his job as an official. The punishments that a StateHSAA levies against its member schools have no bearing on how the game is officiated.

Conduct that warrants an ejection whether there are fines or not is conduct that warrants an ejection. I am really suprised at the amount of hand wringing by officials in this thread over the punishments that a StateHSAA is imposing on its member schools. And official should do his job and not worry about it.

MTD, Sr.