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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2007, 04:50pm
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So I'm still wondering why the L signalled 2 and I'm also wondering what HE had to say about the C's judgement on this play.

IMO if any of the 3 officials sees a foot on the line it's a 2. Regardless of how sure the other guy may be that we screwed it up.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2007, 04:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown
Just for clarification...why was this not correctible? It was an official's error, the official had knowledge of the event, it wasn't a rule that was inadverently set aside....

It wasn't erroneously counting or cancelling a score. Why wouldn't this be able to be corrected up until the official's approval of the final score?
2-10
ART. 1 . . . Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

ART. 3 . . . If in Article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball.

So, according to article 3, the crew had until the end of the next dead ball after the thrown-in following the suspect try to make the fix. Once that time has come and gone, the points actually awarded, stick.

However, if a scoring mistake is made by the score keeper, then it could be rectified at any other time before final approval. But that isnít what happened according the OP.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2007, 04:57pm
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BTW, my opinion is it wasnít your fault at all. Either your lead guessed or your center forgot to blow the whistle to fix it.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2007, 05:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF
As I am running back to fron court there is a quick pass to a player that is directly infront of my view. The players shoots the ball quickly and there is no way I could tell where her feet were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF
How in the blue hell am I at fault for this one. His reasoning is I shouldn't have gotten straight lined.
PIAA REF, I might have to agree with your partner on this one. According to your description, you were in the front court as T, the player who shoots is "directly in front" of you, so isn't this play in your primary? Why would you think it's you partner(s)' fault for not watching and making a call in your primary?

We all get straight-lined from time to time, but I try to make sure it happens as infrequently as possible. In this case, maybe you should've been either off the court, or a little wider off the sideline to see that angle. There's a chance the L might look back to help you out, but the C might also help if the player taking the shot is close to that "gray area" in between coverages. I agree with Dan in that if the L is telling you it's a 2, then they definitely see a foot on the line. If the C was certain it was a 3, they should've blown the whistle right there, counted the 3, give the ball to the other team and away we go. But because he didn't come in and blow the whistle right away, maybe he wasn't 100% sure. However, by the time they give you this information, it's too late to change it.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2007, 05:53pm
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If all three officials are mainly involved in monitoring their areas of responsibility (in this instance both the lead and center should be looking towards the paint for potential rebounding position fouls), then your "guess" would be by far the best. Now, admittedly, if the Center had perceived correctly that you had been straight-lined, or if the Lead was slow getting back to the baseline and was aware of your being straight-lined, then they may take note of the shooter's feet in relation to the 3-pt line. But it would be their responsibility to stop the action and after conferring with you, correcting the call. There is absolutely no fault with your action, as described, imo.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 09:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIAA REF
I just don't get it. How in the blue hell am I at fault for this one.
I'm not going to get into percentages, because that's really stupid. And I don't think assigning blame ("fault") is necessary. What will be helpful is to avoid the situation in the future. So how do you keep from being straight-lined in transition?

I think M&M's advice is very good. You have to make a split-second decision and either go very wide or move into the middle of the floor. Your decision will depend on where the player is, obviously. If he/she is close to the sideline, then you want to get out onto the floor, and vice versa.

Quote:
This was a transition play and it wouldn't have matter what I did I wasn't going to see the players feet. Am I wrong on this.
Yes, I think so. You probably are never going to be in "perfect" position on this type of quick transition play, but you can work the angles a little better to see between the players. You have to get that angle anyway, so that you can see any contact on the shooter. So work inside/outside, depending on the position of the shooter.

As Trail, we have a tendency to want to stay on or near the sideline. If you can break that mindset, you will see that you can get great angles anywhere around the arc.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 09:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
PIAA REF, I might have to agree with your partner on this one. According to your description, you were in the front court as T, the player who shoots is "directly in front" of you, so isn't this play in your primary? Why would you think it's you partner(s)' fault for not watching and making a call in your primary?
I totally agree with M&M. I wouldn't worry about your partner's percentages, I would see what I can do in my game so this situation doesn't occur again. If it was me, I would be mad at myself for getting straight lined and missing the call; especially if the points would've made a difference with the outcome of the game (not saying that was the case or not).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 07, 2007, 02:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I'm not going to get into percentages, because that's really stupid. And I don't think assigning blame ("fault") is necessary. What will be helpful is to avoid the situation in the future. So how do you keep from being straight-lined in transition?

I think M&M's advice is very good. You have to make a split-second decision and either go very wide or move into the middle of the floor. Your decision will depend on where the player is, obviously. If he/she is close to the sideline, then you want to get out onto the floor, and vice versa.
I agree. LEt me add that, especially during a quick turn-over (or durign a press), you also have to know where your partners are. It might be necessary to work the front-court under two-person mechanics for a while until old-L / new-T can get back.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 01:06pm
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We always say in pregame, trust me to call my area. You were out of position but didn't you still have best look at it? Make a decision and live with it. If you absolutely can't, still, why ask the Lead? Why not ask C who at least has secondary or dual depending on where exactly shot came from, whereas the Lead has none. You say the play was in transition but it really wasn't. You were 2-3 steps over division line when the stwal happened, turned and the ball was passed. By the time the shot was released, all 3 of you must have been in the f/c. That's not transition where lead should have the shot outside his primary. A high school girls game should not be too fast for a 3-person crew to not be in proper position at all times.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor
A high school girls game should not be too fast for a 3-person crew to not be in proper position at all times.
It's simply unrealistic to believe there's never going to be a time in a quick turnover situation that an official isn't going to be out of position.

Should we all work to make sure it happens as little as possible? Absolutely. Will it still happen? Yes, though hopefully rarely.

In the OP, the lead gave him a clear 2-point signal. If the lead hadn't seen it, he shouldn't have signaled anything, and then he could look to C for help, and after that you're left with "best guess."

That's not good, but it's what a guy can do. If I'm involved in the same play and the lead on my crew gives the a signal for 2 or 3, I'm gonna trust him.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
It's simply unrealistic to believe there's never going to be a time in a quick turnover situation that an official isn't going to be out of position.
I din't say that. In the OP, he is trying to get someone to side with him that this isn't his fault. It is. Sure there are times when you may not see something, but does that it any less your fault? No. Take responsibilty for your own actions or inactions. If not, I know who you vote for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
In the OP, the lead gave him a clear 2-point signal. If the lead hadn't seen it, he shouldn't have signaled anything, and then he could look to C for help, and after that you're left with "best guess."
He only got the signal from the Lead after he asked for it. My point is, ask the C who has sencondary or dual responsibility depending on where the shot came from not the Lead who has no responsibility for 3-pt shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
If I'm involved in the same play and the lead on my crew gives the a signal for 2 or 3, I'm gonna trust him.
If I'm involved in the same play, and I have no idea if it's a 2 or 3, I'll ask the C for help first.
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Last edited by Mregor; Sat Dec 08, 2007 at 02:42pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor
I din't say that. In the OP, he is trying to get someone to side with him that this isn't his fault. It is. Sure there are times when you may not see something, but does that it any less your fault? No. Take responsibilty for your own actions or inactions. If not, I know who you vote for.
Fair point, and for that one I agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor
He only got the signal from the Lead after he asked for it. My point is, ask the C who has sencondary or dual responsibility depending on where the shot came from not the Lead who has no responsibility for 3-pt shots.
I just re-read the OP. He looked to L for help - maybe you're right that he should have looked to C first. I would normally look to C first; however, who knows how this play developed? I could see a lot of scenarios that would have L looking through his primary right at the shooter in a quick-pass kind of play.

Either way, if another official gives me a definite signal, I'm going to trust them. If L didn't see it and had to guess, he shouldn't have given him anything. It's an important point to trust your partner here.

Finally, if C was definite that it was a three, he should have blown it dead immediately. That we know for sure.

None of that, however, absolves T in this position as having the ultimate responsibility, and if the crew gets this play wrong it's first and foremost on the T. Who bears responsibility for the subsequent handling of that mistake, though, is what the OP was about. And it's the entire crew, from where I sit.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 03:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Either way, if another official gives me a definite signal, I'm going to trust them. If L didn't see it and had to guess, he shouldn't have given him anything. It's an important point to trust your partner here.
I always pregame that if you ask me for help, I gonna give you an answer. If you look to me for help and I have none, what are you going to do? In an OOB situation, we can just go with AP, but in this case since it was a made basket, it has to be 2 or 3. If I didn't see a 3, all I can say is 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Finally, if C was definite that it was a three, he should have blown it dead immediately. That we know for sure.
Agreed.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mregor
I always pregame that if you ask me for help, I gonna give you an answer. If you look to me for help and I have none, what are you going to do? In an OOB situation, we can just go with AP, but in this case since it was a made basket, it has to be 2 or 3. If I didn't see a 3, all I can say is 2.
Interesting. I've always pregamed that if you look to me for help, I'll only give it if I've seen something.

I'd be curious what others do, and why they have that rationale. How about you, Mregor? Why always give something rather than nothing? In this scenario, if nobody sees anything, you go with 2, so why should L make that call?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 08, 2007, 04:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Interesting. I've always pregamed that if you look to me for help, I'll only give it if I've seen something.

I'd be curious what others do, and why they have that rationale. How about you, Mregor? Why always give something rather than nothing? In this scenario, if nobody sees anything, you go with 2, so why should L make that call?
What am I supposed to give? A shrug and then let the primary guess? If primary doesn't have it and they ask for help, we need something. I'm either going to give them the information (direction) or in the case of OOB situation where I have nothing, an AP direction.

In the case of 2 or 3, Lead wouldn't make the call and that's my point. Why ask the Lead when it's not his primary or secondary. What I would have done, is look to the C. If the C gives me a "didn't see it" look, signal 2 and move on. Since it's not at the end of the game, I wouldn't stop and conference about it.

Lastly, C had no business saying it was the wrong call afterwards, that we can agree on. If he knew it was wrong, he should have corrected it.
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