Was it my fault?

[Jonohah]

Situation: T'd up a coach for unsportsmanlike in the 1st quarter. 3rd quarter started and I called a foul on player #3. Coach proceded to substitute player. 5 minutes go by and the coach attempts to re-enter #3, at which time the table calls me over and informs me the #3 had 5 fouls. I inform the coach and he disagrees with the number of fouls. He claims the player only had 3 at half time and that he made a purpose of checking before going into the locker room. I ask the scorer if this is correct and she disagrees and says he had 4 fouls. I inform the coach again the sheet reads five and the player cannot enter. The coach gets upset and I assess a second T and an ejection.

I question 2 things: Should I be checking the scoresheet at halftime and verifying players who are in foul trouble? and should I have given the second technical considering the situation?

This coach is experienced and it is hard for me to beleive he would allow one of his starters to get 4 fouls in the first half. Not to mention the scorer was a volunteer parent who didn't seem to have much experience.

Thanks.

[Junker]

To help you out, we need to clear up a few things. When you called #3 for the foul in the third, did the table let you know it was his 5th? What did the official book have for a number of fouls? It sounds like this might be a lower level game with an inexperienced table crew. As far as the second T, to me some of that depends upon the answers to my other questions. I can understand the coach being frustrated with those mistakes. I'd give the coach a little more rope in a situation like this, but if he takes that rope and hangs himself, give the second and get rid of him.

[iref4him]

Originally Posted by Jonohah

Situation: T'd up a coach for unsportsmanlike in the 1st quarter. 3rd quarter started and I called a foul on player #3. Coach proceded to substitute player. 5 minutes go by and the coach attempts to re-enter #3, at which time the table calls me over and informs me the #3 had 5 fouls. I inform the coach and he disagrees with the number of fouls. He claims the player only had 3 at half time and that he made a purpose of checking before going into the locker room. I ask the scorer if this is correct and she disagrees and says he had 4 fouls. I inform the coach again the sheet reads five and the player cannot enter. The coach gets upset and I assess a second T and an ejection.

I question 2 things: Should I be checking the scoresheet at halftime and verifying players who are in foul trouble? and should I have given the second technical considering the situation?

This coach is experienced and it is hard for me to beleive he would allow one of his starters to get 4 fouls in the first half. Not to mention the scorer was a volunteer parent who didn't seem to have much experience.

Thanks.

Whoever is the official scorer is who you check with. At halftime, the 'R' is to check and make sure the score is correct, AP arrow in the right direction, and check to see if there is any discrepancies between the scorer(s). So that could have mitigated the problem. It is not your responsibility to know who and how many have fouls. The coach can check that themselves or have a someone else on the team do it.

Your judgment for the second 'T'. IF you felt he deserved it either you being right or wrong. It's called mutual respect and he didn't give it. If you feel you may have been wrong, you may have take a little more heat than normal. But, it is still no excuse for a coach to lose it.

[Jonohah]

Originally Posted by Junker

To help you out, we need to clear up a few things. When you called #3 for the foul in the third, did the table let you know it was his 5th? What did the official book have for a number of fouls? It sounds like this might be a lower level game with an inexperienced table crew. As far as the second T, to me some of that depends upon the answers to my other questions. I can understand the coach being frustrated with those mistakes. I'd give the coach a little more rope in a situation like this, but if he takes that rope and hangs himself, give the second and get rid of him.

The table did not inform me it was his 5th. The table crew was infact inexperienced. Book had 5 fouls. Thanks.

[chartrusepengui]

Situation: T'd up a coach for unsportsmanlike in the 1st quarter. 3rd quarter started and I called a foul on player #3. Coach proceded to substitute player. 5 minutes go by and the coach attempts to re-enter #3, at which time the table calls me over and informs me the #3 had 5 fouls. I inform the coach and he disagrees with the number of fouls. He claims the player only had 3 at half time and that he made a purpose of checking before going into the locker room. I ask the scorer if this is correct and she disagrees and says he had 4 fouls. I inform the coach again the sheet reads five and the player cannot enter. The coach gets upset and I assess a second T and an ejection.

I question 2 things: Should I be checking the scoresheet at halftime and verifying players who are in foul trouble?

Yes you should be checking book at halftime when switching possession arrow and I ask at that time if the books are matching so that the unofficial book can make any necessary changes and inform their coach of them. It is not the officials responsibility to identigy which individual players are in foul trouble or to inform coaches of them.

and should I have given the second technical considering the situation?

If he was out of control - you have to give the T and eject. However - if you believe he was surprised and truly thought his player only should have 4 fouls and is upset as a result you might try to difuse the situation first telling him that there is no way that you can keep track of individual fouls and you have to go by the official book unless you have direct knowledge of an error. If an error was made it is unfortunate but since you have no direct knowledge of an error and he needs to calm down so that the game can go forward from this point. He knows this - but given the time it takes to explain quickly - perhaps he would calm down enough that a second 'T' and ejection would not be necessary.

the scorer was a volunteer parent who didn't seem to have much experience.

Unfortunate but not all that uncommon.

[BillyMac]

No easy answer or method for an official to check fouls on an individual player, but:

1) Are both books the same?
2) Are both scorekeepers at the table?
3) Do the number of individual fouls equal the total number of team fouls in either/both book(s)?
4) Are there any distictions between first half and second half fouls in either/both book(s), some scorekeepers change a slash into an "X" during halftime?
5) Has either/both scorekeeper(s) shown any evidence of having problems correctly keeping score up until that point, i.e. not paying attention?

These suggestions may help you figure out if that player has indeed fouled out, but it still going to be messy.

[Mark Padgett]

The only time you should be concerned with how many fouls an individual player has is when he gets his fifth (or second technical). NEVER check on the number of player fouls other than that. The last thing you need is for a coach to think you did or did not call a foul on a player because he either had very few fouls or a lot of fouls.

[Adam]

I never check with fouls. The only numbers I'm concerned with on fouls are 5, 7, and 10.

[refnrev]

I agree with Padgett -- anyone who knows croquet well enought to officiate it and can get his name in the headlines and on the internet because of his mailbox is not to be messed with! Add to the fact that he is right on target. As for Snaqs, don't you think you might want to remember the number 2 as well?

[Ref Daddy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I never check with fouls. The only numbers I'm concerned with on fouls are 5, 7, and 10.

Very nice ..... 5 - player disqualification, 7 - one-and-one, 10- double bonus.

Good simple table instructions too.