Communication to get call straight

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

After reading my post, I do want add that if I am the R, I am giving that official every chance in the book to change his call, even if I have to quote rule citation, section and page number .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will.

Can you do what you are saying? Probably, unless your partner refuses to give in and continues to report/attempt to enforce his own call. (this, to me, is worst case scenario) Is what you are trying to do reasonable? Yes. Is what your are trying to do supported by rule? No.

[Junker]

I had a similar play just this weekend. I worked my annual "do a good deed" kids tournament for free (I actually enjoy it). Our last game was the 8th grade boys championship. We worked 3 man, one newer official, one that works a lot of college and myself. With about a minute left, the team that was ahead goes in for a lay up, misses it and the defender that was trailing the play brushes the net with his hand. He didn't grab it, didn't move the rim, I have nothing from C. Our L, the newer guy, hits his whistle and gives me the "that is something isn't it?" look. I knew right away what he was thinking and ran in to conference right away. I told him that there was nothing to be called so we have to go to the AP (no team control because of the shot) and inbound the ball. My other experienced partner explained it to the coaches and away we went. I'm sure it would have been a much tougher sell at the end of a close varsity game. BTW, after the game I talked to the guy that was L about not looking up from L.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Junker

We worked 3 man, one newer official, one that works a lot of college and myself.

Ah, the decline of education is rearing its head, and myself is saddened.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ah, the decline of education is rearing its head, and myself is saddened.

Yup. Now that I'm only teaching math my English skills must be falling apart. If they get any worse, I'll have to go teach the college prep class in Baxter.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can you do what you are saying? Probably, unless your partner refuses to give in and continues to report/attempt to enforce his own call. (this, to me, is worst case scenario) Is what you are trying to do reasonable? Yes. Is what your are trying to do supported by rule? No.

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.

Which is worse, to misuse your power and throw a partner under the bus? Or to allow your crew to make a bad call that changes the outcome of a game? That's Hobson's choice in a nutshell. Proceed with great caution!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Which is worse, to misuse your power and throw a partner under the bus? Or to allow your crew to make a bad call that changes the outcome of a game? That's Hobson's choice in a nutshell. Proceed with great caution!!

Juulie, all I can say is wow.

If you are certain your partner kicks a rule fix it. Period.

Easy example: A has the ball in their back court for 8 seconds when granted a time out. Your partner at T calls a BC violation after 2 seconds, saying by rule A does not get a fresh 10 seconds. What do you do? Worry about your partner's feelings? I hope not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Easy example: A has the ball in their back court for 8 seconds when granted a time out. Your partner at T calls a BC violation after 2 seconds, saying by rule A does not get a fresh 10 seconds. What do you do?

Tell your partner he's not officiating in Europe any more, and we don't use metric rules here.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Juulie, all I can say is wow.

If you are certain your partner kicks a rule fix it. Period.

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not trying to be obnoxious here. I'm asking for information, okay?

I know we've hashed through this before, but I was never certain where we came out. How do you "...fix it. Period." ? If the partner gets stubbonr and obnoxious (worse than me for instance!) what do you do?

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If you are certain your partner kicks a rule fix it. Period.

Newer officials must have their heads spinning. In other threads, they are being told not to throw their partners under the bus even when they obviously screw up (e.g., calling over and back on a dribbler whose 3-points have obviously not yet crossed the division line). And, here, there are being told to fix a partner's kicked rule, "Period."

I think JR's advice in this thread is the best for all these situations: go to your partner with information, let your partner exercise her/his judgment with this new information, and then live with her/his judgment. This would have worked in the "frustrating" partner thread, too. Go to your partner, ask what he saw, when he says that the dribbler's foot crossed the line, remind him of the rule and then give him an opportunity to be the big man and change his call. If he refuses to change, well, you've done *your* job. The school hired a three-person crew (or a two-person crew) to work the contest, they did not hire you alone and they are not paying you extra to be the crew hero.

And I agree with others who are of the opinion that it matters not whether or not you are the "referee" on the game. Rut's opinion that the referee has the authority to overrule the call in the OP does not have a basis in the rules (as was pointed out by JAR's rules citations).

Hopefully, we do not run into mules (too stubborn to change their call) too often. One thing we can control is our commitment to not becoming that kind of an official. Listen closely to your partner(s) if they come to you with information/wisdom and then make the best call you can, confident and secure that you will have the support of your crew mates.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Somebody made you an "R" for a reason.

As stated earlier, I was not the referee, partner was. Around here, who is the referee means very little, and in this particular case meant nothing.

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen.

I did not let it happen. I did what I could, which was give my partner all the information I had which was relevant to the rule and the call. He corrected the call, but had he not, I see no way that I could have.

About the closest thing I ever had to a standoff with a partner during a game involved the throw-in spot after a foul. I reported the foul, and turned to see partner holding the ball at the endline. I blew a quick whistle and pointed to the sideline. Partner did not move. (maybe he didn't see me, I thought) I took a few steps closer, and again indicated that the spot was on the sideline. He, obviously annoyed, gave in and moved. I heard some snickers and later heard some comments from people who thought the whole thing was funny.

Using all available resources to get every call right goes without saying, but the importance of an officiating crew presenting a united front should not be underestimated.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.

Some of us are the R because we take turns with our partners and it's our turn. I have no more authority in this area as R than I do as U (or U1/U2).

Then again, usually when I say something's a rule, people do listen.