Communication to get call straight

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

I completely understand what you're saying - however, I do think there's something to this conversation. This isn't a case where one says he touched the ball in the cylinder and one says he didn't. Or one says he moved his pivot foot and one says he didn't.

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

Someone is going to have to make that final call, and I guess the question is does the referee have additional authority to make the final decision there?

None of these examples exactly mirror what happened, so I guess that's part of the problem.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

After reading my post, I do want add that if I am the R, I am giving that official every chance in the book to change his call, even if I have to quote rule citation, section and page number .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will.

Can you do what you are saying? Probably, unless your partner refuses to give in and continues to report/attempt to enforce his own call. (this, to me, is worst case scenario) Is what you are trying to do reasonable? Yes. Is what your are trying to do supported by rule? No.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Does not apply. The proper ruling is quite clearly specified in the rules.

2-5-3 is not going to apply either. This isn't about whether or not a goal scores. The matter of goaltending or BI is about an awarded basket. The referee has no more jurisdiction to reverse an umpires GT call than he does to reverse a traveling call or foul call. Even based on the misapplication of a rule.

The best that can be done is to present the calling official with the proper information and hope he/she will make the proper ruling.