Communication to get call straight

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My question is, when I told partner it can't be goaltending, if he had refused to change the call, there would have been nothing further for me to do, right?

Who is the Referee? If you are the Referee you could change the call or make the proper call if you are in that position. Otherwise all you can do give the proper information and if he does not change it there is not much you can do at the moment. This is one of the rare moments where being the Referee really matters.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I was already mentally practicing saying, with a straight face, "He called goaltending, coach."

I do not know if I would say anything other than, "Ask the official when he comes in front of you."

Peace

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who is the Referee? If you are the Referee you could change the call or make the proper call if you are in that position. Otherwise all you can do give the proper information and if he does not change it there is not much you can do at the moment. This is one of the rare moments where being the Referee really matters.



I do not know if I would say anything other than, "Ask the official when he comes in front of you."

Peace

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

I am glad I read down and you referenced the exact rule I was referring to.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am glad I read down and you referenced the exact rule I was referring to.

Peace

Glad I could help.

[BillyMac]

A player cannot touch the ball, ring, or net while the ball is on the ring or within the basket. A player cannot touch the ball if it is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. These are examples of basket interference. It is legal to touch the ring or the net if the ball is above the ring and not touching the ring, even if the ball is in the imaginary cylinder above the ring. It is legal to hang on the ring if a player is avoiding an injury to himself or herself or another player.

The backboard has nothing to do with goaltending. Goaltending is contacting the ball on its downward flight, above the level of the rim, with a chance to go in. On most layups, the ball is going up after it contacts the backboard. It is legal to pin the ball against the backboard if it still on the way up and not in the imaginary cylinder above the basket. Slapping the backboard is neither basket interference nor is it goaltending and points cannot be awarded. A player who strikes a backboard so forcefully that it cannot be ignored because it is an attempt to draw attention to the player, or a means of venting frustration, may be assessed a technical foul. When a player simply attempts to block a shot and accidentally slaps the backboard it is neither a violation nor is it a technical foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

I would think this is written with regard to a last second shot. The disagreement in this situation has to do with the call of goaltending. If goaltending is called, the basket definitely counts. Neither official has the authority to overrule the other's call of goaltending, no matter how wrong it may be. If the umpire waves off a basket because of a traveling call, the referee cannot count the basket because he feels the traveling call was incorrect.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I would think this is written with regard to a last second shot. The disagreement in this situation has to do with the call of goaltending. If goaltending is called, the basket definitely counts. Neither official has the authority to overrule the other's call of goaltending, no matter how wrong it may be. If the umpire waves off a basket because of a traveling call, the referee cannot count the basket because he feels the traveling call was incorrect.

You might be completely right. But from what I am reading the rule does not classify that position one what kind of situation the basket can be changed. And personally I would not want to count a basket that is erroneously awarded. Now if the ball goes in than it is not much of a problem. I would just do everything I could to get that call changed. And if the official insisted on sticking with his call, he would be on his own to get out of it. I would be explaining his ruling. I would not sell him out either, I just would not be apart of the explanation.

Also in reality, many people that are assigned the Referee position are given that responsibility to get out of these kinds of situations. I know what the rule says, but if you allow an obvious rule misapplication, you all will go down potentially and often they look at the Referee.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might be completely right. But from what I am reading the rule does not classify that position one what kind of situation the basket can be changed.

2-5-3: The referee shall decide whether a goal shall count if the officials disagree.

5-1-1: A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above....

In this case there was no goal, but rather points awarded as the result of an infraction.

Also in reality, many people that are assigned the Referee position are given that responsibility to get out of these kinds of situations. I know what the rule says, but if you allow an obvious rule misapplication, you all will go down potentially and often they look at the Referee.

Peace

Around here the title Referee does not carry a lot of weight. It is usually decided by the 2 officials just before they take the court. "You wanna talk to
'em?" "I will or you can. Whatever."

The thing that is important in this case is that it was so easy for me to see what had (not) happened. The guy was not close to touching the ball. I would have called the T from trail (and a long way from the play) if my partner had not blown his whistle. If there had been even the slightest possibility that the call was correct, I probably would have said nothing. And it now seems that I was the only one in the gym that knew what the correct call was. Neither coach appeared to be upset by the goaltending call. Yes, I know keeping people happy and getting a call correct often have little to do with each other.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

Not relevant.

This is for a shot that does go in but is in question....did time expire or not, did two officials give opposing signals (good/no-good) on a buzzer shot, etc.

It is NOT to overrule the calling of an infraction that results in awarded/canceled points....to determine if there was GT or not. You can't overrule a partner's GT call and if you can't do that, you can't change the penalty for GT.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

I completely understand what you're saying - however, I do think there's something to this conversation. This isn't a case where one says he touched the ball in the cylinder and one says he didn't. Or one says he moved his pivot foot and one says he didn't.

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

Someone is going to have to make that final call, and I guess the question is does the referee have additional authority to make the final decision there?

None of these examples exactly mirror what happened, so I guess that's part of the problem.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.