I just deleted my post regarding yours and Mark's question and am considering a new post to address your concern.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. See New Post below.

M&M Guy and Mark:

I understand your reasoning for wanting to apply NFHS R5-S2-A1. BUT there is nothing in the original play that tells me what A3's court status is when he touched A1's try. Therefore we can have two possible Rulings regarding this Play.

#1) A3's court status was behind the three point arc when he touched A1's try and therefore three points are scored for the successful try. OR,

#2) A3's court status was inside the three point arc when he touched A1's try and therefore NFHS R5-S2-A1 applies and two points are scored for the sucessful try.

In either case NFHS Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) and (d) is the play that supports our joint Ruling.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. #1 is my story and I am sticking with it. :D

Ok, we agree. I believe Mark and I were just commenting on your specific statements:
I was just trying to be a little anal about your specific comment; I actually had a feeling you knew what you were talking about. (I'm not sure what Mark's reasons are. :p)

Mark, if A3 intentionally touches the ball, can't this be ruled the start of a new try or tap?

That's what I was asking (unclearly) earlier...

Oh, and I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes "approximately." Since it isn't defined, I guess it is left up to our judgement, and two fouls in less than 1 second constitute "approximately" to me. :D

There is no way I'm having a false multiple foul commited against the same shooter. If both must be called (unlikley) then it will be a multiple foul. If it is during the same continuous motion/airborne shooter interval, it IS approximately the same time(unless the shooter finds a way to float in the air for 30 seconds.) If you call it a false multiple and the shooter misses the three, there would be 6 FTs awarded (3 for each foul). Not a chance that this makes any sense.

Camron:

I feel your pain. Mark's intent in posting the play as he wrote it was to make officials think. It got officials to open their rules books and casebooks and breakdown the play. That is a good thing. Plus, if this play was on a test, one must answer it per the rules book and I would stand by my ruling of a false multiple foul.


1) The fact that A1's field goal attempt was successful makes it easy for the official to determine how many free throws are to be awarded to A1. A1 will be awarded only one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws whether B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul or a false multiple foul.


2) If A1's field goal had not been successful, then the game officials have a wonderful problem in determining how many free throws to award to A1. Let’s look at this situation as if one were answering a test question.

NFHS R5-S2-A1 and NFHS Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) and (d) are the pertinent rules references. While this rules and casebook play refer to situations where the field goal attempt was successful, they tell us how to determine the number of free throws to be awarded to A1’s field goal attempt was unsuccessful.


2a) Let’s first look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded three free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded six free throws.


2b) Now let’s look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (d) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.

MTD, Sr.

Not quite.

I don't disagree with the point about whether it is a 2 or a 3 point try based on the touching of the ball by a team mate either inside or outside the arc.

My assertion is that if there are two fouls are called and are commited against the same shooter during the same live ball....it IS approximately the same time and will always be a multiple foul. It doesn't matter that one precedes the other by a small amount of time (even if the release occurs in that interval), it is still "approximately" the same time.

Agreed. "Approximately" is a judgement, but I see no way that two fouls against a shooter can be anything other than "approximately the same time."

JimGolf:

I feel your pain. But when I made my first post in this thread I did not know (because I had not read the entire thread) that Mark had given more information in a post on Mon., Nov 26, 2007, 03:06pmEST. Mark never edited his original post (the one that started this mess) and I never read his post of Mon., Nov 26, 2007, 03:06pmEST, until I read your post just now. It is obvious that Mark has been off his medications for quite some time or he would have never concocted just a goofy situation, actually I am quite jealous, I wish I had thought of this Play.

I made my original Ruling based upon the information in Mark's original Play, which never completely described where the ball was when it was touched by A3. A fundamental of reading NFHS Casebook Plays and NCAA Approved Rulings is to read nothing into the play, and that is how I read the play. The Play did not state that A3 had touched the ball while on the downward portion of its arc toward the basket, therefore the correct assumption is that A3's touching was not goaltending. Having said and knowing the type of posts that I am capable of writing, you have to ask yourself: "Do I really want MTD, Sr. to answer my question?" And your answer can be none other than: "Of course I do." :D

But, I have a number of errands this afternoon before I leave for my girls' H.S. game this evening so you will have to wait until tomorrow for me to address your question which is a good question because it does changes a number of Rulings after it.

MTD, Sr.

Camron and jdw3018:

I have just completed a post (see the last paragraph), but I will address your concerns tomorrow.

Have a great day.

MTD, Sr.

I have to admit I never thought a thread I started mostly in jest would elicit this many serious responses.

I'm going to have to change meds. :p

... or just start another even more ridiculous thread?:D

You had to encourage him!!!! :eek:

Well, next day turned into nine days. Lets review (please bear with me):


From my Post #37:

SITUATION:

Play 1) A1 attempts a 3 pt. FG.

Play 2) A1 is fouled by B1 while in the act of shooting (the ball is still in A1's hands).

Play 3) After A1 has released the ball and while still an airborne shooter, A1 is fouled by B2.

RULING:

Rulings 1, 2, and 3) The fouls by B1 and B2 constitute a false multiple foul. Each foul in a false multiple foul carries it own penalty. See Ruling (6): A1's 3 pt. attempt is successful. Score three points for A1 (See Ruling (6).) and Team A and A1 will be awarded one free throw for B1's foul and one free throw for B2's foul. B1 and B2's fouls are personal fouls and are counted toward their five PF and TF's for disqualification and is counted toward Team B's seven and ten team fouls for the half.


From my Post #51:

1) The fact that A1's field goal attempt was successful makes it easy for the official to determine how many free throws are to be awarded to A1. A1 will be awarded only one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws whether B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul or a false multiple foul.

2) If A1's field goal had not been successful, then the game officials have a wonderful problem in determining how many free throws to award to A1. Let’s look at this situation as if one were answering a test question.

NFHS R5-S2-A1 and NFHS Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) and (d) are the pertinent rules references. While this rules and casebook play refer to situations where the field goal attempt was successful, they tell us how to determine the number of free throws to be awarded to A1’s field goal attempt was unsuccessful.

2a) Let’s first look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (c) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded three free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded six free throws.

2b) Now let’s look at how Casebook Play 5.2.1 SITUATION C (d) applies to our situation.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded one free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded two free throws.

B1 and B2’s fouls are ruled a false multiple foul:

A1 will be awarded two free throw for each foul by B1 and B2, therefore A1 will be awarded four free throws.


Then JimGolf made Post #52 and threw a monkey wrench into my brilliant analyse for the situation up until point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post #37):
Play 5) While A1's try is still on its way up, the ball is touched by A3.
MTD, Sr.

Not quite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post #18):
To answer an earlier question, the ball was touched on its downward arch.


When I made my interpretation regarding the false multiple foul (see my Post #37) I did so because of my superior knowledge of the rules and my superior ability to interprete the rules. (Now everybody knows why I have brown eyes, I am full of horse manure, :D , but I digress.)

This morning during the Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. RULES/MECHANICS meeting I was bored from listening to The Preacher (Daryl Long, :D ) so I decided to read the 2007-08 NFHS Casebook for 2007-08 and guess what I found on page 31 of said book:

NFHS Casebook Play 4.19.12 SITUATION: B1 fouls airborne A1 who is in the act of shooting. Before airborne shooter A1 returns one foot to the floor, he/she is fouled by B2 who has moved into A1's landing area. The ball: (a) does; or (b) does not, enter the basket. RULING: This is a false multiple foul and each foul carries its own penalty. In (a), the goal is counted and A1 is awarded one free throw for each foul. In (b), A1 is awarded two free throws for each foul. R10-S6, Penalty 6 and 7. (My note: I do not know why Penalty 6 is referenced; it should be Penalty 2 and 5.)

So the correct Ruling is a false multiple foul with A1 shooting either four or six free throws.

MTD, Sr.