jump ball

[oc]

Before the arrow is set A2 and B2 both grab the ball and officials call for a jump ball. A2 is big and B2 is small-Coach B tries to send in a sub for B2. Can he? Rules book or case book citation please.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by oc

Before the arrow is set A2 and B2 both grab the ball and officials call for a jump ball. A2 is big and B2 is small-Coach B tries to send in a sub for B2. Can he? Rules book or case book citation please.

No. A2 and B2 jump. Not sure if its in the book...don't have them handy...but that is how it's done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by oc

Before the arrow is set A2 and B2 both grab the ball and officials call for a jump ball. A2 is big and B2 is small-Coach B tries to send in a sub for B2. Can he? Rules book or case book citation please.

No, B2 is now one of the designated jumpers for the second toss. He must remain in the game and the sub must withdraw. It's in the book.

3-3-2 . . . The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, B2 is now one of the designated jumpers for the second toss. He must remain in the game and the sub must withdraw. It's in the book.

3-3-2 . . . The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she shall enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The entering substitute shall not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she shall withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

Learned something today............. good question

[Nevadaref]

Additionally, just to be clear to others reading this (I'm convinced that the OP already knows this.) A2 and B2 are now the designated jumpers because of 6-4-3 note and casebook play 6.4.1 Sit C part (c).

6-4-3 Note: "If the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be between the two players involved in the center restraining circle."

JUMP BALL TO START THE GAME
6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (a) is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds; (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; or (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (a), Team B will have a throw-in. The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward A's basket when a player of Team B has the ball for the throw-in. Team A will have the first opportunity to throw-in when the procedure is used. In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred. In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A's basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

[oc]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Additionally, just to be clear to others reading this (I'm convinced that the OP already knows this.) A2 and B2 are now the designated jumpers because of 6-4-3 note and casebook play 6.4.1 Sit C part (c).

6-4-3 Note: "If the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be between the two players involved in the center restraining circle."

JUMP BALL TO START THE GAME
6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (a) is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds; (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; or (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (a), Team B will have a throw-in. The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward A's basket when a player of Team B has the ball for the throw-in. Team A will have the first opportunity to throw-in when the procedure is used. In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred. In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A's basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

OK, what if B2 is injured? 8-2 only allows subs for an injured free throw shooter--jumper is not mentioned. If this ever happened in my game I'll allow the sub-and make sure the coach knows that B2 better be really injured and not playing again today.--But I don't see my interpretation allowed by the book. The alternative is to go straight by the book as I read it and force the injured player to do the jump ball.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by oc

The alternative is to go straight by the book as I read it and force the injured player to do the jump ball.

Hope your liability insurance is current.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Hope your liability insurance is current.

Mark's right. Treat it like a free throw shooter. Allow the sub, injured player has to sit at least one tick; then can return.

The only way you can say he can't play the rest of the game is if you deem he had a concussion; in which case he needs to have a Dr. note to enter again.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by oc

OK, what if B2 is injured? 8-2 only allows subs for an injured free throw shooter--jumper is not mentioned. If this ever happened in my game I'll allow the sub-and make sure the coach knows that B2 better be really injured and not playing again today.--But I don't see my interpretation allowed by the book. The alternative is to go straight by the book as I read it and force the injured player to do the jump ball.

First, NEVER attempt to force an injured player to do anything!

Second, there is a principle in NFHS basketball that an injured player may be replaced without penalty at any time. You should simply have the replacement, B6, participate in the jumpball.

Third, you absolutely cannot forbid an injured player from returning later in the game, unless the player was knocked unconscious and cannot produce a written release.

If you believe that a coach is not being truthful about such a situation, then you may assess an unsporting technical foul, but you should wait until you are convinced.

Here is the appropriate casebook play which supports what I have written above:
3.2 SITUATION B: A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mark's right. Treat it like a free throw shooter. Allow the sub, injured player has to sit at least one tick; then can return.

The only way you can say he can't play the rest of the game is if you deem he had a concussion become unconscious; in which case he needs to have a Dr. note to enter again.

It's actually a little different.

[oc]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

written above:
3.2 SITUATION B: A1, who is designated as a starter 10 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time of the game, becomes ill or is injured before the game starts. RULING: A1 may be replaced without penalty as illness or injury is considered to be an extenuating and unavoidable situation which permits a substitution. A1 would be permitted to enter the game later. (10-1-2a)

That's the caseplay I was looking for-thanks as I wrote before I wanted to allow the sub and would, just didn't see that allowed in the rule book in this particular case. I saw an exemption for free throw shooters-but not for a jump ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's actually a little different.

yeah yeah, whatever.

[Nevadaref]

Seriously, Adam, because of your post I'm now going to ask my state office for clarification on the concussion issue. I went back and checked last year's POE that gave the "proper procedure for handling apparent concussions."
It seems to be written as a directive to the coaching staff, not the game officials.
This procedure did not reappear in the 2007-08 rules book.

I'm going to ask what to do should I as a game official suspect that a player is suffering from a concussion. Perhaps the player was knocked out in a previous game and hasn't fully recovered, but since I did not observe that I would have no idea. What is my role in protecting the safety of that student-athlete?

[Adam]

It's a good point. As I was writing the first post, though, I was thinking how truly unqualified we are to even think about concussions. Unconscious, that we can generally ascertain.

We aren't qualified, however, to determine whether a player has suffered a concussion. I don't think we should be given any authority at all on that issue, because authority generally comes with liability. It should fall on the coaches who have consistent contact with the kids as well as access to medical consultation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's a good point. As I was writing the first post, though, I was thinking how truly unqualified we are to even think about concussions. Unconscious, that we can generally ascertain.

We aren't qualified, however, to determine whether a player has suffered a concussion. I don't think we should be given any authority at all on that issue, because authority generally comes with liability. It should fall on the coaches who have consistent contact with the kids as well as access to medical consultation.

While I don't disagree with anything you've written, the other side of the argument would be that as adults and game officials we have a responsibility to look after the safety of the young players.

The concussion procedure which I previously mentioned on page 71 of the 2006-07 NFHS rules book contains:

ACTION PLAN
If you suspect that a player has a concussion, you should take the following steps:
1. Remove athlete from play.
2. Ensure athlete is evaluated by an appropriate health care professional. Do not try to judge the seriousness of the injury yourself.
3. Inform athlete's parents or guardians about the known or possible concussion and give them the fact sheet on concussion.
4. Allow the athlete to return to play only with permission from an appropriate health care professional.

I have to wonder about the game official's role in upholding the words in red.