Photographer's getting tossed

[Tar Heel]

I am a basketball official with 12 years experience, and also a sports photographer. I am a member of a sports photographer website, called sportsshooter.com.

On the discussion board, there was a thread about photographers tossed by officials. I offered my opinion, and granted, it was biased toward officials, and that irritated some people. It's a lively thread, very entertaining to find out what photogs think of us, but what I wanted was to see if some of you would read the thread and offer a response.

You will not be able to post it directly on that board, unless you are a member, but if you would post your response here, I will give you credit (anonymously) and post it verbatim, minus any direct attacks, or cheap shots, name calling, etc. Please, just respond in a thoughtful, professional manner and I will be able to post a differing point of view on the "conflict" between photogs and refs.

Thanks so much! Hang on to your hat!

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message...html?tid=27133

Phil Hawkins
CBOA/SJVBOA Fresno unit.

[Nevadaref]

I only know of two instances of a photographer getting the boot in HS athletic contests.

1. A TV news cameraman kept getting in the way of one of our officials on the end line during a game. The official had him removed and it was not pretty.

2. A father who was the team photographer was taking pictures from a hillside behind the team benches in a girls soccer match in which I was an AR. Following an offside decision on the far end of the field this fellow felt the need to run all the way down to my end and express his opinion about what a terrible call that was. I told him to return to the other end, but he refused and continued to complain, so I called the CR over and filled him in on what was happening. The guy then had the gall to holler at the CR! This got him removed from the gamesite.

Most photographers are just trying to do their jobs and create some publicity and nice momentos for the kids. The vast majority are very polite and try to stay out of the way of both the players and the officials. When one gets too engrossed in the action a polite reminder that this space is needed by us almost always does the trick.

Personally, I like it that they are out there covering the action for the kids.

[Tar Heel]

Thanks, Nevadaref...

Great thought... sometimes in the heat of the action, I too probably am shorter with people in the baseline area than I should be... but rotating, moving properly and trying to focus on the two centers banging each other sometimes shortens my patience with someone getting in my way.

But I wanted everyone to notice that there is a "power mad" perception out there about us, and it is probably deserved, but doesn't need to be. But they were saying derogatory things about refs, and I wasn't about to let it go without some defense of the official's position.

Please, y'all keep reading and give me something to post from other refs than myself.

Thanks!

Phil

[rainmaker]

I don't have a lot of problems with photographers. If they're in the way, I just don't look and either bump them or step on them, depending. Really though, I've only done that once or twice in 8 years. If it's a parent taking pix, that's a different story.

[tjones1]

I've never had a problem with one either. I've bumped into one or two, but usually before I can take my whistle out of my mouth real quick, they've already said sorry before I can. The next trip down the floor they've made their adjustment so it doesn't happen again.

[HawkeyeCubP]

1. I think if photographers (and I've got to think most do) take the time to know and abide by the field/court rules (i.e. restraining lines, etc.) AND use common sense when court rules don't specifically apply (i.e. not shooting from the endline when there are less than 6 feet between it and the wall at high school basketball gyms), there would be little to no problems in this area.

2. I feel that if fields and courts are properly marked, and AD's make the rules and policies clear to those who have clearance to be around the field/court, there's not much to worry about.

3. On the football field this season, I experienced some way-too close lens by my head action as back judge outside the endline at a couple of games (this was, of course, at a field which did not have the new mandatory 3-yard broken restraining line around it).

4. I have, actually, moved back and forth slightly, adjusting my position at back judge in football (similar to one of the photographer posts described), and for a split second, did actually wonder if the photographers in that area thought I was intentionally messing with them. Then I snapped back onto my key for the play and forgot about them, until a deep pass play out the back of the endzone almost took one out.

5. And I'm positive I'd kill myself the first few times down some of the skinnier endlines at the NCAA D1A basketball level I see on tv. I personally think that the angled/too close photographer spaces in the NBA and some NCAA courts is completely unsafe. I know the leagues need the shots for marketing, but the athletes are big and fast, and come down very hard and cover a lot of ground when they do it.

[Tar Heel]

Wow thanks everyone! This is tremendous, maybe some photographers can empathize with how we're viewing it.

Thanks again.

Phil

[Nevadaref]

I don't concur with those who say that they just bump into or step on the photographers. I think that is the wrong approach. It also is what gives folks a poor opinion of officials.

These photographers are people just trying to do a job or get a nice picture for a kid. A little politeness and a short explanation as to why it is important for an official to have that space will go a long way. I'd rather be polite first and see what response I get.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't concur with those who say that they just bump into or step on the photographers. I think that is the wrong approach. It also is what gives folks a poor opinion of officials.

These photographers are people just trying to do a job or get a nice picture for a kid. A little politeness and a short explanation as to why it is important for an official to have that space will go a long way. I'd rather be polite first and see what response I get.

Naw, if they're in the way, kick 'em in the balls. Dennis Rodman taught me that.

[Texas Aggie]

I've worked as a pro photog at football, basketball, baseball, and soccer games. For the life of me, I can't understand how any photog that calls himself a professional would be in ANY position to get tossed by the officials. If I can, I talk to the guys and say, "hey, I'm back where I think I need to be, but let me know if you want me back further," or whatever. I always kid with them about their "best side" and all that jazz and tell them they'll soon be on the cover of Referee mag. Of course, as an official, I'm going to be more apt to do that than the average photog, but any so called professional is an idiot if he doesn't understand that his role (as a photog) is secondary (if that) to what's going on. When I'm an official, I don't give a rip about their so-called job demands; mine take precedence. As a photog, I understand that role. The guys on sportsshooter (which I've been to a bunch and read many threads like that) don't seem to.

As an official, I've had to get photogs out of the way. I had one this year in a football game -- he was as close as I (line judge) to the sideline in some cases. After asking him nicely twice to get back, I had the game admin get him out of the way. I didn't toss him, but I didn't have any more problems with him either.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Naw, if they're in the way, kick 'em in the balls. Dennis Rodman taught me that.

He kicked you?????

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

He kicked you?????

Maybe that's why JR's partners say his voice has a higher pitch than his whistle!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tar Heel

I am a basketball official with 12 years experience, and also a sports photographer. I am a member of a sports photographer website, called sportsshooter.com.

On the discussion board, there was a thread about photographers tossed by officials. I offered my opinion, and granted, it was biased toward officials, and that irritated some people. It's a lively thread, very entertaining to find out what photogs think of us, but what I wanted was to see if some of you would read the thread and offer a response.

You will not be able to post it directly on that board, unless you are a member, but if you would post your response here, I will give you credit (anonymously) and post it verbatim, minus any direct attacks, or cheap shots, name calling, etc. Please, just respond in a thoughtful, professional manner and I will be able to post a differing point of view on the "conflict" between photogs and refs.

Thanks so much! Hang on to your hat!

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message...html?tid=27133

Phil Hawkins
CBOA/SJVBOA Fresno unit.

I didn't follow the link, but my assumption is that this is for HS and below.

If so, I'd encourage the photographers to introduce themselves to the officials before the game and work out an acceptable location from which to shoot. Almost anything can be agreed on before the game when it's calm (and, depending on the sport / location, the coaches might have to approve); almost any "surprise" will not be pleasant during the heat of the battle.

[bgtg19]

Phil-

I read the thread from the other site up to the point that I read your first post. It's a long thread, so I did not read any further. For what it is worth, here are my thoughts:

1) That thread was not at all out of control or out of line as seemed to be the implication. I did not perceive a "power mad" bias against officials or read generally "derogatory" things about officials. It seemed to me that most people who posted in that thread said they had no problem with officials, most officials are nice people, etc. A couple indicated that 1% of the officials can be out of line. Only 1%? I think they're being rather generous to us.

2) Your first post over on that thread irritated me, too, but not because it was biased towards officials. I was irritated by your statement that you were revealing referee "secrets" by confessing that officials are distracted from their duties by women with large breasts. I'm not sure that your please-don't-think-of-officials-as-power-mad-think-of-them-as-dopey-adolescent-men (and women, since there are surely women who cannot help but stare at large breasts, not that there's anything wrong with that) does the profession any favors.

3) I disagree with your statement that "out-of-control-egos usually surface long before a ref gets to the varsity level and are weeded out." I submit this site (which we all love and cherish) as Exhibit A in the argument against your position.

4) Like most officials, I have had no problem with photographers. Sure, there are times when we don't have as much space to work as we'd like, but those aren't the photographers fault -- they're facing the limitations, too. I think most officials are good, decent people who are doing the best they can. I think most photographers are good, decent people who are doing the best they can. Sure, there are a few officials, and sure there are a few photographers, who aren't as good or as decent, but you just deal with that as best you can and you move on.

Again, I didn't read the entire thread at the other site, so perhaps I missed a lot.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by bgtg19

and women, since there are surely women who cannot help but stare at large breasts

Yeah - I noticed that while watching the officials at the Ellen DeGeneres classic.