rotation

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Posted this on another site..........

First game of season last night and my partner mentioned someting to me and wanted an opinion from the gurus here.

I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side.

He thought I should have slid over, I thought in this scenario it's ok to have two trails for a few seconds and I had I slid over, I'm watching virtually nobody.

Not trying to prove who was right or wrong, just trying to learn.

Thanks

I am one of those guys that JRut was talking about. I am in agreeance with your partner on this one. We need to have as much strongside officiating as possible. Where does the most action happen? Near the ball or on the ball side. So why put you're C in the position to have to referee a "lone ranger" play? What if we have a 2 man game set up on that side with a pick n' roll? That play then needs two sets of eyes and if it happens on the weakside wing, there is only one guy there to referee 4 players. You need that rotation so that if that scenario does happen we can have not only two sets of eyes on the developing play, but better angles at that.

Also, you don't have to run over to the ball side, you can walk as long as you're getting ther in time to see the whole play, whatever it may be. Walking gives you the chance to bail back out if the ball starts to get swung back to the side you are already on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I am one of those guys that JRut was talking about. I am in agreeance with your partner on this one. We need to have as much strongside officiating as possible. Where does the most action happen? Near the ball or on the ball side.

He said that all players were on the other side of the court (opposite of the ball). If that is the case, a rotation might do nothing but leave two officials on the same side to officiate two players (ball handler and the defender). Unless the ball has settled or it is obvious the ball is going to stay on that side, a rotation might be silly. Then you leave one official to officiate 8 players (or most players) all by themselves. Not good if you ask me.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So why put you're C in the position to have to referee a "lone ranger" play? What if we have a 2 man game set up on that side with a pick n' roll? That play then needs two sets of eyes and if it happens on the weakside wing, there is only one guy there to referee 4 players.
You need that rotation so that if that scenario does happen we can have not only two sets of eyes on the developing play, but better angles at that.

Also you are assuming that that is a hard play. I do not know about you, but I can officiate about 4 players rather easily with one of those players in control of the ball. It is not that hard to do and until there is a completed rotation or the ball leaves the immediate area, you have to do that anyway. As a matter of fact I will not take my eyes off that kind of play until I know my partner can pick it up. If the ball is also not below the 3 point line, then the Lead in most cases should not be looking there in the first place if they have active post players.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Also, you don't have to run over to the ball side, you can walk as long as you're getting ther in time to see the whole play, whatever it may be. Walking gives you the chance to bail back out if the ball starts to get swung back to the side you are already on.

Also this game had to be a girl's game. I know some people hate the comparisons, but in Boy's games, skip passes are very common. If you rotate just because the ball is on one side you will be in the middle of a rotation in a boy's game while the ball goes right back to the side you just came from. And if a team favors one side of the court, rotation would also be futile.

I can tell you that the "women's" mechanic is not an accepted practice in our state for many reasons. Some of them that I talked about are just examples of this.

Peace

[fullor30]

Btaylor.............

JR just saved me a whole mess of typing. That's pretty much the scenario, it was an iso play with no possibility of a two man game. And it was a girls' game as JR surmised where ball reversals move rather slowly or slower than boys.

I just felt at the time why would I rotate?

I had a pretty good partner last year who in our pregame said 'I'll rotate when I need to rotate.'

I guess a good reflection on our game if that was one of the major discussions in our postgame.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Btaylor.............

JR just saved me a whole mess of typing. That's pretty much the scenario, it was an iso play with no possibility of a two man game. And it was a girls' game as JR surmised where ball reversals move rather slowly or slower than boys.

I just felt at the time why would I rotate?

I had a pretty good partner last year who in our pregame said 'I'll rotate when I need to rotate.'

I guess a good reflection on our game if that was one of the major discussions in our postgame.

Well to me, if the ball moves that slow in the women's game then there is no reason not to walk your butt over there. What if the girl beats her man and the defender gets right behind her and your partner gets stacked on the play? Well if he's stacked by seeing nothing but the defenders back, then you as the lead across the paint have the same look but on the inverse, you will be stacked seeing nothing but the offensive players front and you will then depend on the Trail (cause I know you two aren't going to guess at this play just because she flailed her arms), who is across the court furthest from the play and because you didn't get over he has the best angle, he now has to come get that play when she gets shoved from behind. While all you had to do was get over there and see that the defender slightly takes her hand and shoves her in the small of her back, causing her shot to be affected. Now you have the closest guy to the play making the call and just adding to the overall credibility of the crew.

WHEWW... a lot of typing to make a small point but worth it, I do believe.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well to me, if the ball moves that slow in the women's game then there is no reason not to walk your butt over there. What if the girl beats her man and the defender gets right behind her and your partner gets stacked on the play? Well if he's stacked by seeing nothing but the defenders back, then you as the lead across the paint have the same look but on the inverse, you will be stacked seeing nothing but the offensive players front and you will then depend on the Trail (cause I know you two aren't going to guess at this play just because she flailed her arms), who is across the court furthest from the play and because you didn't get over he has the best angle, he now has to come get that play when she gets shoved from behind. While all you had to do was get over there and see that the defender slightly takes her hand and shoves her in the small of her back, causing her shot to be affected. Now you have the closest guy to the play making the call and just adding to the overall credibility of the crew.

WHEWW... a lot of typing to make a small point but worth it, I do believe.

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

[mick]

Originally Posted by fullor30

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by mick

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

I'm with you mick. It's a weak move to stay on the weak side at Lead. Instead of being late on getting over there when a post player dives to the ball side block, like any good post would, you can beat the play over there. But like I said earlier this is one weird situation apparently.

There was no chance in hell of any "possible post play" on the opposite block. I have never seen an entry pass to the post from the totally opposite wing into the opposite side post.

P.S. Fullor I'm glad you came somewhere, anywhere to ask questions. That shows that you want to learn and thats great. I don't know if you have been to any camps, but you should go to some high level ones with big time referees as your instructors. Maybe they can convince you that this is not the correct thought process to have on this type of play. I can almost guarantee you that all the "big time referees" who don't have dead legs are going to get over there on this play or at least the ones I know. What is it or how is it going to hurt you or your crew to get over there? I am really asking this question of you. I am now wanting to get inside yours and JRut's head, who I am suprised has this train of thought on this play. All I can think of is the negatives that come out of you NOT rotating. What are the positives of you not rotating?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

[mick]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

That's some camp!
If, at your camp, the Lead is on the weak side, then the Trail and Center are on the strong side. Funny thing to teach.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

That's my philosophy too. And I want to make it clear, this sitch was only for a few seconds, A1 broke the count, and post players drifted over, necessitating a switch.

Btaylor..........I did attend a well known final four official's camp also hosted by top interp guy in Illinois. This sitch never came up there, yet I was never observed not making enough rotations as lead. The same for a college camp I attended.

I wouldn't describe it as a 'weak' move as you posted. It appears we have varied opinions on this and discourse is good. That said, I'm not here to validate my ability but to share philosophies and learn.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He said that all players were on the other side of the court (opposite of the ball). If that is the case, a rotation might do nothing but leave two officials on the same side to officiate two players (ball handler and the defender). Unless the ball has settled or it is obvious the ball is going to stay on that side, a rotation might be silly. Then you leave one official to officiate 8 players (or most players) all by themselves. Not good if you ask me.

Well I just guess we are taught in two diffrent ways then, cause if I don't rotate my boss would be on my rear end about. They can't stress enough about having strongside officiating. Plus, I guess this is just an unusual play, cause you are not going to see, too many times, two players on one side of the floor and no one cutting to the ball, it just doesn't make basketball sense.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also you are assuming that that is a hard play. I do not know about you, but I can officiate about 4 players rather easily with one of those players in control of the ball. It is not that hard to do and until there is a completed rotation or the ball leaves the immediate area, you have to do that anyway. As a matter of fact I will not take my eyes off that kind of play until I know my partner can pick it up. If the ball is also not below the 3 point line, then the Lead in most cases should not be looking there in the first place if they have active post players.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here as well. I don't know what level you are talking about when you say you can ref this play alone, but if you are talking college, which you referee, I think you are a god and that you are better than any referee at the NBA level, none of which believe they can have a high percentage of correct calls while reffing a two man game Pn'R by themselves. IMO there is just too much going on. Hip holds by the defender on the screener (before the role and even harder after the role to the basket), the screener with an extended leg on the on ball defender, illegal forearm reroute on the dribbler trying to push over the screen, lock ups with the screener and the on ball defender, etc. I just don't believe you get as many plays right if you have to referee plays like this, alone.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I just guess we are taught in two diffrent ways then, cause if I don't rotate my boss would be on my rear end about. They can't stress enough about having strongside officiating. Plus, I guess this is just an unusual play, cause you are not going to see, too many times, two players on one side of the floor and no one cutting to the ball, it just doesn't make basketball sense.

I see this play quite often on the boy's side. And the reason I think that is, is because the boy's try to break down their defenders off the dribble more often from the top of the key. It is just a different style of play issue, but it happens often with good guards.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I guess we have to agree to disagree here as well. I don't know what level you are talking about when you say you can ref this play alone, but if you are talking college, which you referee, I think you are a god and that you are better than any referee at the NBA level, none of which believe they can have a high percentage of correct calls while reffing a two man game Pn'R by themselves. IMO there is just too much going on. Hip holds by the defender on the screener (before the role and even harder after the role to the basket), the screener with an extended leg on the on ball defender, illegal forearm reroute on the dribbler trying to push over the screen, lock ups with the screener and the on ball defender, etc. I just don't believe you get as many plays right if you have to referee plays like this, alone.

First of all the NBA has a different set of rules. The NBA does not have a true zone defense. The NBA does not have 5 second counts for closely guarded. And the NBA as a whole has a different speed of the game. And the last time I checked I have never seen a NBA player come from the Women's side and the mechanic I have advocated is done by guys that see the Kevin Durants and Greg Odens all the time. Those officials do not seem to have a hard time covering that type of play. The NBA comparison is really a bad one if you ask me because a lot of the play is not more than a one on one match up with the other players standing around. That does not happen in HS and college basketball like it does in the NBA. And yes I can see a ball handler, the defender and the screener and even the player that is guarding the screener. And based on what I just told you, all those players will not even be where the lead would be looking. And if you think that is bad, then how is one guy going to officiate 8 players all by him or herself if you rotate away from all those players.

Look, do what you want, but in Illinois many despise the Women's mechanics. If you want to work the Women's mechanics, then go officiate Women's basketball. Rotating just because the ball is on one side is just a bad idea.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I see this play quite often on the boy's side. And the reason I think that is, is because the boy's try to break down their defenders off the dribble more often from the top of the key. It is just a different style of play issue, but it happens often with good guards.

I don't see how that is a clear out if it happens at the top of the key. Does everybody go down to the baseline?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all the NBA has a different set of rules. The NBA does not have a true zone defense. The NBA does not have 5 second counts for closely guarded. And the NBA as a whole has a different speed of the game. And the last time I checked I have never seen a NBA player come from the Women's side and the mechanic I have advocated is done by guys that see the Kevin Durants and Greg Odens all the time. Those officials do not seem to have a hard time covering that type of play. The NBA comparison is really a bad one if you ask me because a lot of the play is not more than a one on one match up with the other players standing around. That does not happen in HS and college basketball like it does in the NBA. And yes I can see a ball handler, the defender and the screener and even the player that is guarding the screener. And based on what I just told you, all those players will not even be where the lead would be looking. And if you think that is bad, then how is one guy going to officiate 8 players all by him or herself if you rotate away from all those players.

Look, do what you want, but in Illinois many despise the Women's mechanics. If you want to work the Women's mechanics, then go officiate Women's basketball. Rotating just because the ball is on one side is just a bad idea.

Peace

What mechanic is that? Not going across?

You are also incorrect in assuming the NBA has alot of one on one. It has a good amount of one on one, especially very late in ball games where players just have one superstar, but as much tape and as many games as I watch, the plurality of plays are of the Two man game sort.

I believe totally that you can see all the players in a two man game, but do you, being your own harshest critic, believe you can REFEREE them at the college level and higher?

Also the L, unless preoccupied by an aggressive match up in the post, which we don't have in this situation, should be looking up on the wing during the two man game to have two sets of eyes covering it. If it is more toward the top of the key then it should be between the Trail and the Slot official.

How much of an action area will you actually have that far away from the ball? All or the majority of the action happens around or near the ball.

Hey where I live many despise the mechanics too but I want to get the play right and in my opinion and the opinions of some of my bosses outside the area I live they believe this is the case as well.

I'll leave it at that, but to also say that I respect your opinions and always have, just in this case I am very adamant about what should take place here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I don't see how that is a clear out if it happens at the top of the key. Does everybody go down to the baseline?
What mechanic is that? Not going across?

I do not think it is a "mechanic." That is a philosophy that is taught. Usually the term I hear the most is "rotate with a purpose." In other words you do not just rotate just to follow the ball; you rotate because that is where you need to be.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

You are also incorrect in assuming the NBA has alot of one on one. It has a good amount of one on one, especially very late in ball games where players just have one superstar, but as much tape and as many games as I watch, the plurality of plays are of the Two man game sort.

Right or wrong, the NBA has many officials on their staff that has not been officiating basketball longer than many guys that you see on TV working D1 ball. There are people that have not been officiating basketball much more than 10 years total and they are in the NBA because they took a different route to get that kind of opportunity. Comparing the NBA to this discussion when we are not talking about an NBA game is kind of silly.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I believe totally that you can see all the players in a two man game, but do you, being your own harshest critic, believe you can REFEREE them at the college level and higher?

Not only do I believe I can officiate that play, I have done so many times already. If you get a team that runs their offense with cuts and screens near the top of the key, where do you think most players are located? Not all offenses are designed only where players run around in the paint.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Also the L, unless preoccupied by an aggressive match up in the post, which we don't have in this situation, should be looking up on the wing during the two man game to have two sets of eyes covering it. If it is more toward the top of the key then it should be between the Trail and the Slot official.

How much of an action area will you actually have that far away from the ball? All or the majority of the action happens around or near the ball.

Neither of us knows what kind of aggressive action that was taking place in this game. Often the most aggressive actions by players are away from the ball. This is why it is taught to watch off ball. At least the games I see on a regular basis. I just came from a scrimmage tonight with a team in the Chicago Catholic League. I was one of the instructors for this scrimmage to help younger officials in working the game. There was a lot of contact and physical play off ball that the officials were missing because they were busy watching the ball and not their area. And this was a scrimmage with players of the same team. Just imagine what might have happen if these were rivals in this conference. And it is very well known that the conference I just mentioned is a very physical and aggressive league. This is not just about this league that happens in a lot of basketball I see in many different areas I tend to work games.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Hey where I live many despise the mechanics too but I want to get the play right and in my opinion and the opinions of some of my bosses outside the area I live they believe this is the case as well.

If you really paid attention to what I said, I did not say to never rotate. I said that if you have most of the players on one side of the court, you rotate when it is necessary, not just because the ball is on that side of the court. It is very possible that rotating might be the only thing to do in this situation, but if the ball has not settled, you can wait.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I'll leave it at that, but to also say that I respect your opinions and always have, just in this case I am very adamant about what should take place here.

Let me also say this to you. You are disagreeing with my opinion on the issue of rotations that is completely alright with me. I am just saying that in my experience what you are saying is not the way it is taught and not the way that many outside of Women's basketball look at the mechanics. Every year the CCA Women's Committee goes in one direction and the CCA Men's Committee goes in another. There is a reason there are totally different books made and why the NF does not completely adopt college philosophies. Heck there are people that cannot stand the "closely guarded" mechanic.

Peace

[TD21]

I would have to agree with those who say rotate in this situation. JRut's argument is valid in the sense that he is saying there are 8 players on one side of the floor and if the lead were to rotate that would leave on official to referee those 8. Having said that, I believe the lead still needs to rotate. There are many what ifs in this situation, but I'd rather be strong side and ahead of any players that are coming strong side. We all know that the one thing that the players are all looking for is the ball. The players are going to go where the ball is or the side of the floor where the ball is. So why not get strong side before the players do? I do agree with JRut in the fact the cllege men's and women's is two different mechanic sets, but I disagree with his thoughts on the difference between college women's and highschool, especially high school girls. NF follows college womens very closely, so it would seem more realistic to follow their philosophy, which in this case would be, to rotate strong side. I can't think of a situation where the trail would have to retreat to referee a play that the lead shouldn't come across. Having said that we can always rotate back if we need to. I always want a to referee as lead from strong side.