running out of bounds, screen

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I knew that what he said about the Fed was correct. I'm surprised it's legal to step oob around a screen in NCAA. Or am I mis interpreting?

The step itself is legal. What's illegal is to be the first (they mean "next") person to touch the ball after returning inbounds.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The step itself is legal. What's illegal is to be the first (they mean "next") person to touch the ball after returning inbounds.

Interesting. So why don't we see this more often? Use a quick give, step out to get rid of the defense, and then go! Seems like a great play if legal?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Interesting. So why don't we see this more often? Use a quick give, step out to get rid of the defense, and then go! Seems like a great play if legal?

errrr....why is it a good play to have 20% of your team OOB? Did you miss the part of the rule that says this player cannnot be the first to touch when he comes back in?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I knew that what he said about the Fed was correct. I'm surprised it's legal to step oob around a screen in NCAA. Or am I mis interpreting?

NCAA
9-4-1: A player who steps OOB under his/her own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has comitted a violation.

10-3-9: Deceptively leaving the playing court for an unauthorized reason and returning at a more advantageous position is a Technical foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

errrr....why is it a good play to have 20% of your team OOB? Did you miss the part of the rule that says this player cannnot be the first to touch when he comes back in?

Hey, I'll ask the questions here!

Maybe I'm not understanding what's legal and what's illegal. Let me try a caseplay, maybe that'll clarify what I mean. Which will help clarify the rule.

A1 dribbling up the sideline in backcourt (I know, stupid, but we're not talking D1 here!) B1 has good tight defensive position alongside. B2 and B3 set a screen directly infront of A1 just beyond the division line. A1 sees the play set up, passes to A2 who is just crossing the division line between the tops of the keys. Now A1 steps oob around the screen, and behind the screen (FC) steps back inbounds. A2 still has the ball. Now A1 is back inbounds, and A2 has the ball. If A2 passed to A1, would A1 be the first to touch after coming back in? A2 still had "possession" when A1 established herself inbounds, so wouldn't A2 be the "first to touch"? If you practiced this, and pulled it off, seems to me you'd be gumming up three defenders at midcourt and clearing A1 for a pretty good cut to the basket.

But perhaps there's something I don't understand.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Hey, I'll ask the questions here!

Maybe I'm not understanding what's legal and what's illegal. Let me try a caseplay, maybe that'll clarify what I mean. Which will help clarify the rule.

A1 dribbling up the sideline in backcourt (I know, stupid, but we're not talking D1 here!) B1 has good tight defensive position alongside. B2 and B3 set a screen directly infront of A1 just beyond the division line. A1 sees the play set up, passes to A2 who is just crossing the division line between the tops of the keys. Now A1 steps oob around the screen, and behind the screen (FC) steps back inbounds. A2 still has the ball. Now A1 is back inbounds, and A2 has the ball. If A2 passed to A1, would A1 be the first to touch after coming back in? A2 still had "possession" when A1 established herself inbounds, so wouldn't A2 be the "first to touch"? If you practiced this, and pulled it off, seems to me you'd be gumming up three defenders at midcourt and clearing A1 for a pretty good cut to the basket.

But perhaps there's something I don't understand.

In your play, it would be violation in NCAA. Since A2 had the ball when A1 went OOB, as soon as A1 caught the pass from A2, A1 would be "the first to touch" after coming back inbounds. If A2 happened to pass it to A3 while A1 is coming back inbounds, then A3 passes it to A1, that would be legal.

The "usual" play where this happens is the screen along the baseline that frees up the 3-point shooter. A1 might be guarded in the right corner while A2 holds the ball at the top of the key. A's teammates set the screen on A1's defender, A1 runs OOB along the baseline to the other corner, A2 hits them with pass and A1 hits the 3 pointer.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In your play, it would be violation in NCAA. Since A2 had the ball when A1 went OOB, as soon as A1 caught the pass from A2, A1 would be "the first to touch" after coming back inbounds. If A2 happened to pass it to A3 while A1 is coming back inbounds, then A3 passes it to A1, that would be legal.

The "usual" play where this happens is the screen along the baseline that frees up the 3-point shooter. A1 might be guarded in the right corner while A2 holds the ball at the top of the key. A's teammates set the screen on A1's defender, A1 runs OOB along the baseline to the other corner, A2 hits them with pass and A1 hits the 3 pointer.

Okay, so theoretically, in Fed there's no way to pull this off legally, but in NCAA, if you could time the passes carefully, you might. I'm guessing it's more trouble than it's worth?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

A1 sees the play set up, passes to A2 who is just crossing the division line between the tops of the keys. Now A1 steps oob around the screen, and behind the screen (FC) steps back inbounds. A2 still has the ball.

If A1 has passed out of the trap why would A2 pass the ball back to that sideline? He would be smarter to pass the ball to the other side or better into the lane for a layup.

You don't beat a press by keeping the ball where the defense is. You beat it by getting the ball and offensive players where the defense aint.

As M says, this type of thing is mostly seen on the endline as the ball is swung to the weak side.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If A1 has passed out of the trap why would A2 pass the ball back to that sideline? He would be smarter to pass the ball to the other side or better into the lane for a layup.

You don't beat a press by keeping the ball where the defense is. You beat it by getting the ball and offensive players where the defense aint.

It wouldn't go where the defense is. It would go to that sideline where the trap (three players, remember) is now behind the play.

But I'm obviously wrong. I mean, I started this thought with the wonderment that no one does this, so clearly it's not useful.

Now you know why I'm a (low-level) ref, and not a coach (at any level).

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It wouldn't go where the defense is. It would go to that sideline where the trap (three players, remember) is now behind the play.

But I'm obviously wrong. I mean, I started this thought with the wonderment that no one does this, so clearly it's not useful.

Now you know why I'm a (low-level) ref, and not a coach (at any level).

Don't be too hard on yourself; I've never called this, and I've only seen it called once, so it's not all that common. But now you hopefully understand the violation a little better, so you can watch for it when some Bobby-Knight-wannabe trys to slip this past you, thinking you're just a (low-level) ref.

[tjchamp]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In your play, it would be violation in NCAA. Since A2 had the ball when A1 went OOB, as soon as A1 caught the pass from A2, A1 would be "the first to touch" after coming back inbounds. If A2 happened to pass it to A3 while A1 is coming back inbounds, then A3 passes it to A1, that would be legal.

If A1 was still out of bounds when A3 caught the pass, then A3 passes to A1, wouldn't that be illegal. The rule says the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has comitted a violation.

Situation would be A1 on right wing passs to a2 at top of key, then delays a second, goes around the post screen oob at baseline. While out of bounds, a2 passes to a3 at left wing. A1 then gets back inbounds on block on left side and receives pass from a3. Vioation, or legal?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

If A1 was still out of bounds when A3 caught the pass, then A3 passes to A1, wouldn't that be illegal. The rule says the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has comitted a violation.

Situation would be A1 on right wing passs to a2 at top of key, then delays a second, goes around the post screen oob at baseline. While out of bounds, a2 passes to a3 at left wing. A1 then gets back inbounds on block on left side and receives pass from a3. Vioation, or legal?

Sure, if A3 has the ball while A1 is OOB, then A3 passes it to A1 after A1 comes back inbounds - violation.

I just haven't seen it called all that often, so either it doesn't happen, or it isn't high on many officials' list of things to call.