Speaking of Visible Counts..Part 2

[FrankHtown]

You are lead in a 3 person game. The ball is passed into the low post. You, as Lead, square up to accept the play. Player A starts dribbling with his/her back to the basket. Defender B is within 6 feet, both feet on the floor, facing the dribbler. Does the Lead start a 5 second closely guarded count?

I've heard yes the Lead does, and no the Lead doesn't. I've heard if the Lead does start a count, it's a clear signal to the Trail to go off-ball (which the trail should be once the Lead goes on-ball). I've also heard the Trail should be counting (therefore, on-ball) so the Lead can concentrate on the paint.

Thoughts...opinions??

[jeffpea]

In NFHS and NCAA-Men, the lead does not visibly count the play you've described above or any other situation that might occur.

NCAA-Women may have different mechanics...someone who works NCAA-Women will post shortly, no doubt.

[JRutledge]

Lead officials in the pure mechanics of NF and NCAA Men's do not have the lead do this. Maybe a supervisor or assignor has a different opinion, but I have never been told by anyone in any decision making situation that this is a good idea. The Lead in a 3 Person is supposed to be watching post play, not counting this kind of violation.

Peace

[Splute]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Lead officials in the pure mechanics of NF and NCAA Men's do not have the lead do this. Maybe a supervisor or assignor has a different opinion, but I have never been told by anyone in any decision making situation that this is a good idea. The Lead in a 3 Person is supposed to be watching post play, not counting this kind of violation.

Peace

I do not have 3-person mechanics down by any means so let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You are only stating that the Lead does not "visibly show" a closely guarded count, but he is responsible for it? Or are you saying he is not responsible for it and never counts a closely guarded?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

I do not have 3-person mechanics down by any means so let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You are only stating that the Lead does not "visibly show" a closely guarded count, but he is responsible for it? Or are you saying he is not responsible for it and never counts a closely guarded?

I will take it a step further. If you read the CCA Men's Mechanics book on page 103 (under Section 20: Counting), Article 3 addresses 5 second counting. There is a diagram that divides the court for the Center and Trail officials (only) and their counting responsibilities.

So the answer is only the C and T does the counts for 5 second counting in Men's basketball. My state does not use the NF books anymore, but the books used to have a similar diagram in the book. I know that it is not taught where I live to ever have the Lead count. As a matter of fact a camper was told not to at all during a camp I attended this past summer.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

In NCAA-M, the Lead is not responsible for the 5-second closely guarded count. The Trail will visibly count and make the call if the violation occurs.

I thought that in NFHS, the Lead took the count. But since others have said this is not correct, I guess I could be wrong about that.

[Scrapper1]

The NFHS official's manual for a crew of three officials used to say, "Each official has an area of primary coverage for fouls and violations on and off the ball in that area." Sounds to me like they want the Lead to take violations in the Lead's primary area.

That was a few years ago, though, and I don't have a current NFHS manual.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The NFHS official's manual for a crew of three officials used to say, "Each official has an area of primary coverage for fouls and violations on and off the ball in that area." Sounds to me like they want the Lead to take violations in the Lead's primary area.

That was a few years ago, though, and I don't have a current NFHS manual.

That is a stretch if you ask me. Also one of the problems with the NF Official's Manual is it is not very detailed. But unless someone tells you do, you should not be counting from the Lead position. For one the ball is not there very long. A count likely started outside of the Lead's area. And the Lead's primary is mostly for post players. If the ball is in the Lead's primary, chances are they are also watching the ball or other players around the ball. Of course, if you insist do it that way. I think it looks silly and is not a very good practice.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also one of the problems with the NF Official's Manual is it is not very detailed.

I agree completely. But this was a statement made directly about responsibility for violations.

A count likely started outside of the Lead's area.

This is also true. But all it means is that the Trail may have a violation before the Lead gets to 5.

And the Lead's primary is mostly for post players.

This is NOT true in NFHS mechanics. The Lead is responsible for everything below the free throw line extended and inside the 3-point arc and half the lane. That certainly includes the post players, but the Lead's area includes the 18' jump shot from the endline. You could certainly have a 5-second violation in all that space.

I think it looks silly and is not a very good practice.

I'm not going to agree or disagree. I was merely trying to point out the NFHS mechanic, based on the information that I have at hand.

[M&M Guy]

In NCAA-W, if the ball is in the L's primary, then the L has responsibility for the 5-sec. count.

I have been told many times by various veteren officials that in NFHS, the L never has a 5-sec. count, but I have never been able to find that specified in the mechanics manual. The same veteren officials have never been able to tell me who does have the count, if the ball is on the low block, directly in front of the L. Does the T have the count, while the L watches for fouls and violations? Do we really have 2 sets of eyes on-ball? Who's watching T's area? The only answer I've been able to receive is, "A 5-sec. call never happens in that spot, so don't worry about it." So, when I work with them, I guess I don't worry about it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree completely. But this was a statement made directly about responsibility for violations.

I know of not a single official that works for the NF. I do not get my license for the NF. My state does not even hand out the NF Official's Manual anymore because in general they do not use the NF's position on all mechanics. And in the position I am currently in, this is not taught at all by clinicians state wide unless they are ignoring IHSA Mechanics. You are not from my state, but I can only speak to what I know.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is also true. But all it means is that the Trail may have a violation before the Lead gets to 5.

Which is another reason the Lead does not need a count.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

This is NOT true in NFHS mechanics. The Lead is responsible for everything below the free throw line extended and inside the 3-point arc and half the lane. That certainly includes the post players, but the Lead's area includes the 18' jump shot from the endline. You could certainly have a 5-second violation in all that space.

Once again you are focused on NF Mechanics which has already been proven many times on this board mean nothing if states do not want to follow them. Hence the conversation we had about Louisiana and their "no flex" 3 Person Mechanics. The NF only gives a mechanics book to help standardize mechanics if there is no mechanic from individual states or organizations.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not going to agree or disagree. I was merely trying to point out the NFHS mechanic, based on the information that I have at hand.

I have no problem with references to NF Mechanics. But understand it may not mean anything if you live in a place that does not interpret those mechanics the same way. I do not think that statement you quoted applies across the board and for every type of situation. The point of that statement is to say that each official can call fouls and violations. There are still things that each official is going to do based on other factors.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Please understand that I am not trying to beat a dead horse or to start a fight on this. I am merely responding to those who posted before me in this thread.

Jeff said:

In NFHS and NCAA-Men, the lead does not visibly count the play you've described above or any other situation that might occur.

And then you yourself said:

Lead officials in the pure mechanics of NF and NCAA Men's do not have the lead do this.

I think both those statements are false. If I'm wrong, I apologize. If the original poster lives in a state that doesn't care about NFHS mechanics, that's fine. I'm simply trying to point out to anyone who might care about the NFHS mechanic that the NFHS does seem to want the Lead to count for this violation.

[Drizzle]

In the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual, this is a point of emphasis:

0.1.5 Lead Count (Crew of Three): When the ball drops below the free-throw line extended on the Lead's side of the court, the Lead's main responsibility is to watch the post players on the low block. When the ball is moved into the low block and a new closely-guarded count should begin, the Lead signals the count. Too often, the Trail officials begins a new count when the Lead official is still responsible.

So according to the Fed, the lead does indeed count, barring any state exceptions.

Glad I can actually contribute, I mostly learn from lurking you guys!

[Splute]

Thanks, I was going to look it up when I got home. But I will also check with our association on Wednesday. Good discussion gents...

[Nevadaref]

The facts are that the Lead has the count in NCAA_W and NFHS, but not in NCAA_M, if one goes strictly by the book.