Is this a T?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.

BZ:

When a throw-in, as in NFHS R7-S5-A7, is germane, more importantly, this is NOT a designated spot throw-in. NFHS R7-S6-A1 notes that NFHS R7-S5-A7 is an exception to only one player making the throw-in. NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows the following sceniaros:

1) All five (5) players from Team A are behind the endline. A1 passes the ball to A2, who passes the ball to A3, who passes the ball to A4, who passes the ball to A5, who passes the ball to A1 who then passes the ball to A3 who is standing inbounds. A1 released his pass to A3 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing inbounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

3) I could go on with more plays but I think you see my point, that this throw-in is not a designated throw-in and the rules allow the team who has the ball for the throw-in much latitude in making a legal throw-in.

MTD, Sr.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

*Not knowing if I want to jump in the middle of this one*

This may again be one of those situations where may is an important word. Just because A may do those things doesn't mean those are the only two options...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing out-of-bounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

Care to fix that?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

A1 didn't pass, roll, bounce, hand the ball to A2, A2 wasn't in the scenario at all that's the difference.

A1 didn't dribble, A1 didn't pick it back up, they left that's the difference.

You can make an argument to support any of the 3 warning, T, violation on team A...my stance is team A did not follow the throw-in provisions and that occurred before B1 picked up the ball.

In terms of common sense officiating blowing the cluster **** dead and getting a thrower OOB with the ball is probably the wisest choice.

BZ, unfortunately you are very incorrect about this. Team A has not committed a throw-in violation of any kind on this play.

A1 did not even attempt to make a throw-in pass. He doesn't have to. You cannot penalize him for having the ball touch the OOB area prior to the making of the throw-in pass. We certainly know that A1 can bounce the ball OOB prior to making the throw-in pass per 9.2.2 Sit D.

Furthermore, although 7-5-7 doesn't specifically state such, even you wrote that A1 could HAND the ball to A2. Notice that's also not throwing, batting, or rolling the ball to another player, which is how the definition of a pass reads.

Quite simply it would be silly to deem handing the ball to a teammate not a pass and thus a violation. There is no throw-in violation in this scenario by Team A. The only violation has been by Team B. The only question is whether a technical foul is also warranted.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Care to fix that?

I fixed it. See what happens when one becomes a bald old geezer. I can't wait for Mark, Jr. to pass his OhioHSAA basketball officiating class in December so that he can carry his "old man" on the court.

MTD, Sr.

[Jimgolf]

This might be the most obscure post I've seen. And then someone posts that the play actually occurred during a game they worked!

What's the distinction between control and possession? How can a player possess a ball and not control it? Can you have player control but not team control? <--- Rhetorical questions, please don't answer.

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

My instinctive take is that if the official is using ROP, then the ball on the floor has to be considered in possession of the team that's supposed to be throwing the ball in. Conversely, the ball placed on the floor by the player is part of a pass. I'll have to read the definitions on all of these to be sure.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion. I've had an epiphany.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

AMEN!!

[jer166]

But it helps one think and research the written rules and cases. In the end, even if there is no consensus, one will not be in the dark if such a situation occurs in real life.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This might be the most obscure post I've seen. And then someone posts that the play actually occurred during a game they worked!

What's the distinction between control and possession? How can a player possess a ball and not control it? Can you have player control but not team control? <--- Rhetorical questions, please don't answer.

This is confusing because the rule book uses common everyday words but defines them more narrowly than the general populace usually does. It would be clearer to the average person if the rule book had it's own terminology for control and possession.

I guess that's why Rule 4 is the most important rule to master. You need to learn to speak and think in NFHS and forget English.

My instinctive take is that if the official is using ROP, then the ball on the floor has to be considered in possession of the team that's supposed to be throwing the ball in. Conversely, the ball placed on the floor by the player is part of a pass. I'll have to read the definitions on all of these to be sure.

Thanks for a thought provoking discussion. I've had an epiphany.

JimGolf:

Since this thread concerns itself with at game being played under NFHS Rules, all of my rule references will be NFHS. Rule 4 defines player control and team control. One will not find a definition for possession. The definitions of player and team control require that the ball be live and have inbounds court status. The ball is live during a throw-in but does not have inbounds court status. The word possession has traditionally been used when the ball has been placed at the disposal of a team for a throw-in. One can then say that once the ball is at the disposal of a team for a throw-in the team has possession of the ball and if a player from that team is holding the ball the player has possession of the ball, hence there is Team Possession and Player Possession.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BZ, unfortunately you are very incorrect about this. Team A has not committed a throw-in violation of any kind on this play.

A1 did not even attempt to make a throw-in pass. He doesn't have to. You cannot penalize him for having the ball touch the OOB area prior to the making of the throw-in pass. We certainly know that A1 can bounce the ball OOB prior to making the throw-in pass per 9.2.2 Sit D.

Furthermore, although 7-5-7 doesn't specifically state such, even you wrote that A1 could HAND the ball to A2. Notice that's also not throwing, batting, or rolling the ball to another player, which is how the definition of a pass reads.

Quite simply it would be silly to deem handing the ball to a teammate not a pass and thus a violation. There is no throw-in violation in this scenario by Team A. The only violation has been by Team B. The only question is whether a technical foul is also warranted.

The pass allowed in 7-5-7...no matter how far you stretch the definition...must have A1 getting the ball to A2 for it to even remotely fit the provisions under the rule.

This is a common sense issue, the intent of the rule wasn't to allow A1 to sit the ball down and not have a teammate replace them as the thrower.

As I said earlier and it was lost...the best way to handle this is to do what you'd do if a thrower fumbled the ball...blow the whistle, kill it, and get the throw-in re-started.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

The pass allowed in 7-5-7...no matter how far you stretch the definition...must have A1 getting the ball to A2 for it to even remotely fit the provisions under the rule.

This is a common sense issue, the intent of the rule wasn't to allow A1 to sit the ball down and not have a teammate replace them as the thrower.

As I said earlier and it was lost...the best way to handle this is to do what you'd do if a thrower fumbled the ball...blow the whistle, kill it, and get the throw-in re-started.

How do you know A2 isn't going to come over and pick up the ball? If B1 doesn't reach through and grab the ball, do you still blow it dead and restart the count with a new inbouder? That would be quite unfair to Team B.

[Adam]

Team A may very well have a play that has A1 setting the ball down and B1 coming to get it. As long as it's all done in 5 seconds, I don't see any basis for ruling this a violation or for stopping it in progress.

I think we can agree that the definition of a pass is incomplete. If A1 sets it down for A2 to get, it's a pass. If he sets it down and picks it back up, he never relinquished possession.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

How do you know A2 isn't going to come over and pick up the ball? If B1 doesn't reach through and grab the ball, do you still blow it dead and restart the count with a new inbouder? That would be quite unfair to Team B.

Is A2 anywhere near the ball?

Is A2 making any effort to get the ball?

A new throw-in and count is a hell of a lot less unfair than a delay warning and/or T to team B, now isn't it?

This is a screwed up scenario...clearly team A is confused, team B doesn't know what is happening and may do something that will get them a T, not because of a purposeful act but because of team A screwing up their throw-in.

Since we are dealing what ifs, what are you calling if A1 sets the ball down, moves inbounds, A2-5 doesn't move to pick up the ball, team B doesn't reach across to touch the ball and A1 goes back OOB to throw it in?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

A new throw-in and count is a hell of a lot less unfair than a delay warning and/or T to team B, now isn't it?

Not in my opinion, as A hasn't violated any rule and B has. I'm calling a delay warning on B.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Since we are dealing what ifs, what are you calling if A1 sets the ball down, moves inbounds, A2-5 doesn't move to pick up the ball, team B doesn't reach across to touch the ball and A1 goes back OOB to throw it in?

I'm going to move down the court with the ball and officiate the game.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Not in my opinion, as A hasn't violated any rule and B has. I'm calling a delay warning on B.


I'm going to move down the court with the ball and officiate the game.

Yeah, now that isn't unfair to team B.