What dunks?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You switching sides?

No just informing jer that there are no players before the game begins, so if we went by what he highlighted there would be no way to ever penalize anyone for a dunk during warmups. He is simply not correct to use the term players for this rule.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jer166

10-3 A Player shall not:

10-3-4 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials' jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff ...

If they aren't on the official roster then they are not players in the game. If the coach decides to leave them off it is not our job to decide why they aren't on the roster.

Sounds like the coach out foxed the officials & they decided to apply their own brand of justice.

Maybe they changed this one too, but in my 06/07 book 10-3-4 ends with the words "this item applies to all team members" so it is definitely not just the players (players are in the game).

When does someone become a team member? When his name is submitted to the official scorer which must happen prior to the 10 minute mark (3-2-1) but *could* happen sooner. The rule addresses lots of things that cannot be changed aftert the 10 minute mark but nothing is said about removing a name at any point.

Soooo.... I'm thinking that if a coach has a person's name on the list of players he submits to the table - or even intends to submit to the table - then that person is a team member. I do not believe it is within the spirit of the rules for a coach to avoid penalty by removing names from the roster.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Fifteen minutes prior to the game two team members of team A dunk with both the coach and official as witnesses. When coach submits his squad list, he deliberately omits the names of the violators. Official assesses a technical foul for each act of dunking as team fouls and charges the coach with two indirect technical fouls. This ruling is correct.*

When the players dunked at the 15 minute mark, the calling official by rule was supposed to inform the players and their head coach that they each just got a "T". That's when you find out whether they were actually team members or not. If the coach says they are, give 'em 'T"s, If the coach says they aren't, run 'em off the floor.

And if they aren't "team members" before the game, they sureashell aren't gonna be team members during the game.

Just use the rules that you already have. No need at all to get into waiting until the squad list goes to the bench.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

When the players dunked at the 15 minute mark, the calling official by was supposed to inform the players and their head coach that they each just got a "T". That's when you find out whether they were actually team members or not. If the coach says they are, give 'em 'T"s, If the coach says they aren't, run 'em off the floor.

And if they aren't "team members" before the game, they sureashell aren't gonna be team members during the game.

Just use the rules that you already have. No need at all to get into waiting until the squad list goes to the bench.

If it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck.....I think you know where I'm going with this.

If they are participating in pregame, dressed like the rest of the team, in my book they are "team members". 2 indirect T's! No coaches box and if the coach leaves them off the roster, fine! And remember he's got two of the three DINGS already chalked up for the night.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

If it walks like a duck and if it talks like a duck.....I think you know where I'm going with this.

If they are participating in pregame, dressed like the rest of the team, in my book they are "team members". 2 indirect T's! No coaches box and if the coach leaves them off the roster, fine! And remember he's got two of the three DINGS already chalked up for the night.

Well, being a trusting sort personally, I'm gonna take the head coach at his word. If he tells me that they're not on his team, far be it for me to tell him he's a lying douchebag.

Seriously, if the head coach does tell me that they're not part of his team, I'll go along with that. If there's any doubt at all, I'll give him the benefit of it. Suspicions do not necessarily equate to fact. I can guarantee you though that those individuals will not be sitting on the bench during the game, nor will they be trying to enter it either.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Seriously, if the head coach does tell me that they're not part of his team, I'll go along with that. If there's any doubt at all, I'll give him the benefit of it. Suspicions do not necessarily equate to fact. I can guarantee you though that those individuals will not be sitting on the bench during the game, nor will they be trying to enter it either.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Is there any justification for allowing him to leave them off the roster, then retroactively applying the Ts if he decided to add them later? And then tack on that unsporting T that was previously mentioned?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Seriously, if the head coach does tell me that they're not part of his team, I'll go along with that. If there's any doubt at all, I'll give him the benefit of it. Suspicions do not necessarily equate to fact. I can guarantee you though that those individuals will not be sitting on the bench during the game, nor will they be trying to enter it either.

What rule do we use to forbid these guys sitting on the bench?
Also, 10-1-2-b states that they can be added to the team member list, at the price of a technical foul for each.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What rule do we use to forbid these guys sitting on the bench?
Also, 10-1-2-b states that they can be added to the team member list, at the price of a technical foul for each.

1. The rule is the one that allows JR to inform the coach that if they sit on the bench for the game in uniform then they are going to be considered team members and penalized appropriately, but if they spend the game in the lockerroom or go change into street clothes and then have a seat they won't be considered team members. That's 2-3, baby.

2. The correct penalty for adding BOTH team members to the scorebook after the ten minute mark is a SINGLE team technical foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1)What rule do we use to forbid these guys sitting on the bench?

2)Also, 10-1-2-b states that they can be added to the team member list, at the price of a technical foul for each.

1)Rules 4-34-2 and 1-13-1. The coach told you that they're not team members. That also means that they're not bench personnel. The bench is for team members and coaches. That means that their butts aren't going on the bench.

2) Again, the coach has already told you that they're NOT team members. That's why you aren't going to let them be added to a team member list. Just say "no". If the coach wants to argue, just say "fine, Coach, we'll both put a report in after the game and we'll let someone up the line decide whether I'm wrong or not."