Tech on Coach situation

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Not "coaching PLAYERS". When he is "figuring out", who is he coaching at that moment? No one. This is clarified by many state associations like ours. Check with yours.

You did state that is the Kansas interp. It is not the interp provided by Illinois, or by the NFHS. In IL, there is no distinction between standing or kneeling, talking or being silent. To quote the state interp: "The larger concern is the continuation of unsporting behavior by bench personnel."

Do you have examples of some of the other "many state associations", and how they are similar or different?

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Never said anything about a T for the coach kneeling. You can say all you want until you tear an ACL because you "didn't look where you were going" one time and because a coach was kneeling where he shouldn't be.

I thought a T is the penalty for anyone offending the coaching box rule? If KS says kneeling is not part of the rule, what penalty is in force for kneeling?

In IL, if the coach is kneeling in the coaching box, he is where he's supposed to be. What happens if you tear an ACL when you trip over his leg while he's standing there coaching?

You did state that is the Kansas interp. It is not the interp provided by Illinois, or by the NFHS.

Ok. Great about IL. Do you have the NFHS interp? Please share.

In IL, there is no distinction between standing or kneeling, talking or being silent. To quote the state interp: "The larger concern is the continuation of unsporting behavior by bench personnel."

That interp does not address the topic at hand - when a coach may stand.

Do you have examples of some of the other "many state associations", and how they are similar or different?

Here is one.
Colorado
COACHING BOX
The head coach may be off the bench in front of his or her seat within the confines of the designated coaches’ box to give instructions to his or her players and/or substitutes.


I thought a T is the penalty for anyone offending the coaching box rule? If KS says kneeling is not part of the rule, what penalty is in force for kneeling?

Huh? KS says he may not kneel, stand, crouch if not coaching the players.

In IL, if the coach is kneeling in the coaching box, he is where he's supposed to be. What happens if you tear an ACL when you trip over his leg while he's standing there coaching?

Look, I am simply saying if a coach is kneeling it is more likely you may not see him. Especially since the box extends to the sideline, where a C should be running. If you don't believe that, then great. Next topic. I am not saying it's a T. I simply said I ask them to stand for both our safety. Remember, I said we are very lenient about the coaches box. I only use our interp if there is some commentary or gesturing that many can hear/see. If that doesn't work, then a T for unsportsmanlike. If you do it different, great.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Here is one.
Colorado
COACHING BOX
The head coach may be off the bench in front of his or her seat within the confines of the designated coaches’ box to give instructions to his or her players and/or substitutes.

This does not mean what you think it does. I can tell you difinitively that we (Colorado officials or the CHFAA organization) do not interpret this rule as you do. No attempt is made to define coaching in such a limited way. This phrase is simply there to differentiate between coaching and whining to the officials.

I do know Iowa has, at least in the past, agreed with you with regard to kneeling. I can definitely see some basis for agreement on that issue.

But to try and say "coaching" must be "active" and include talking or gesturing? That's someone at a very high level on a power trip.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This does not mean what you think it does.

You keep quoting that rule. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Ok. Great about IL. Do you have the NFHS interp? Please share.

Well, in the NFHS 2006-07 Rules, back in the POI's, there's this mention of the Coaching Box:

Originally Posted by 2006-07 Rule Book

Coaching Box – In states that authorize the use of the optional coaching box, the head coach is the only person on the bench that is permitted to stand and must remain in the coaching box. All other bench personnel must remain seated at all times except when a team member is reporting to the scorer's table, during time-outs or intermissions, and to spontaneously react to a play.

There is no distinction mentioned of only being able to do certain things while standing. The distinction is being made between the head coach and other bench personnel; who is able to stand, and who is not. As I mentioned, in IL the concern is that some coaches feel that standing allows them greater license to abuse officials.

Originally Posted by KSRef07

That interp does not address the topic at hand - when a coach may stand.

Actually, it does - it says the head coach is the only one permitted to not stay seated on the bench. The word "stand" has always meant the same as "not sitting on the bench", and has tacitly included such actions as pacing, kneeling, hopping, etc., as long as it is done within the confines of the coaching box and is not construed as an action specifically against the rules, such as inciting the crowd or being disrespectful towards an official. The NCAA has used the same interpretations regarding the coaching box rule.

In post #2 of this thread, your answer to the original poster was:

Originally Posted by KSRef07

The only person who can stand is the head coach. And he/she can only stand to "instruct players", then must sit.

You forgot to mention that this is the KS interp. You answer seemed to imply this was the NFHS and/or NCAA interp. Most of us have been responding to the fact that this is not the NFHS interp of the coaching box rule. Remember, different states use variations on the rules; some states use a shot clock, others do not use the coaching box rule. It's important to distinguish and identify local and state interpretations when discussing rules on this forum.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, in the NFHS 2006-07 Rules, back in the POI's, there's this mention of the Coaching Box:

There is no distinction mentioned of only being able to do certain things while standing. The distinction is being made between the head coach and other bench personnel; who is able to stand, and who is not. As I mentioned, in IL the concern is that some coaches feel that standing allows them greater license to abuse officials.


Actually, it does - it says the head coach is the only one permitted to not stay seated on the bench. The word "stand" has always meant the same as "not sitting on the bench", and has tacitly included such actions as pacing, kneeling, hopping, etc., as long as it is done within the confines of the coaching box and is not construed as an action specifically against the rules, such as inciting the crowd or being disrespectful towards an official. The NCAA has used the same interpretations regarding the coaching box rule.

In post #2 of this thread, your answer to the original poster was:

You forgot to mention that this is the KS interp. You answer seemed to imply this was the NFHS and/or NCAA interp. Most of us have been responding to the fact that this is not the NFHS interp of the coaching box rule. Remember, different states use variations on the rules; some states use a shot clock, others do not use the coaching box rule. It's important to distinguish and identify local and state interpretations when discussing rules on this forum.

Since the coaching box is relatively new you would think there would be more cases and formal clarifications by NFHS. I still think the qualifying language of "stand for the purpose of coaching his team" implies there are purposes for which he CANNOT stand and things he can't do such as sit or kneel. Just my opinion. Obviously nagging refs gets a T no matter if there is a box or not - so that can't be the reason.

Glad KS has taken the mystery out of it.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Since the coaching box is relatively new you would think there would be more cases and formal clarifications by NFHS. I still think the qualifying language of "stand for the purpose of coaching his team" implies there are purposes for which he CANNOT stand and things he can't do such as sit or kneel. Just my opinion. Obviously nagging refs gets a T no matter if there is a box or not - so that can't be the reason.

Glad KS has taken the mystery out of it.

Under 10-5 of my rules book it reads: By state association adoption the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2, for the purpose of coaching his/her team. I do not find the word "stand" in that paragraph. Why do you want to read limitations into this?

Originally Posted by Splute

Under 10-5 of my rules book it reads: By state association adoption the head coach may be off the bench in front of his/her seat within the confines of the designated coaching box, as in 1-13-2, for the purpose of coaching his/her team. I do not find the word "stand" in that paragraph. Why do you want to read limitations into this?

You are correct. KS state read limitations, not me, regarding standing. I should have clarified.

However, "for the purpose of coaching" is a limiting statement. My question is simply, "What other purposes, sportsmanlike or unsportsmanlike, are there for standing that are NOT permitted?

Unsportsmanlike is easy. If that was the clarification other wording would have been used.

Sportsmanlike purposes that would not be permitted? If none, then why not strike that phrase in total? I believe they wanted to indirectly say you can't just stand for 32 minutes like a statue because it opens the door to other bad actions.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KSRef07

Sportsmanlike purposes that would not be permitted? If none, then why not strike that phrase in total? I believe they wanted to indirectly say you can't just stand for 32 minutes like a statue because it opens the door to other bad actions.

You're reading too much into it. They don't indirectly say anything. It's been around long enough, if they wanted it to mean coaches could only stand when talking to players, they would have directly, explicitly, and expressly said as much.

The fact that Kansas is the only state that does this ought to speak volumes.

BTW, are there any other Kansas refs on here that have an opinion on this?

[Splute]

oops my bad, you are obviously quoting KS exceptions and not NFHS rules. Apparently KS feels the need to further limit coaches or remove the ability to reason from the ref.